Wargamer Home - Forum Home
Welcome Guest, please Login or Register!
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register or login before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Topic: Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge - Released !

    Page 1 of 17 :

All Forums : [GAMES] : Computer Gaming > Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge - Released !
26 MAY 2010 at 1:56pm

DBeves

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1327
Joined: 26 OCT 2004

Status : Offline
Its released - but more expensive than I thought it was going to be ...           Was going to try this but as I never really got in to COTA might give it a miss at that price...

Profile Search


26 MAY 2010 at 2:00pm

SolInvictus202

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 95
Joined: 24 FEB 2010

Status : Online
Originally Posted By DBeves
Its released - but more expensive than I thought it was going to be ...
WOW - 65 Euros for download only....damn....I really wanted that game, but I'm going to have to pass....a student doesn't have this kind of money...not until autumn at the earliest SolInvictus edit: ok...I'd have the money, if there wasn't diving as a hobby, skiing as a job....and so on...oh yes...the girlfriend...always expensive...

SolInvictus "parcere subiectis et debellare superbos" - Vergil

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:06pm

Rayfer

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1875
Joined: 19 FEB 2006
Location: US, Michigan

Status : Offline
Too pricey for my tastes.....$80 digital only, $90 hard copy.   Ouch!

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:08pm

ComradeP

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 6889
Joined: 1 JUL 2006
Location: NL

Status : Offline
Even though I'm a student too, I would have the money if I would have a job at the moment and wasn't saving for WitE which might even be more expensive. 65 euro's for a game covering a theatre of operations that has already been covered by a significant number of other games/scenarios, I think I'll pass. What's with the laundry list of features over at the Matrix info page by the way. If you want to scare more casual wargamers, a list of features that doesn't even fit on 1 screen's the way to do it.

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:23pm

tgb123

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1474
Joined: 13 NOV 2009

Status : Offline
I never got into CotA, and would have liked to give it another shot, but not for $80

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:26pm

Wolverine101

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 4416
Joined: 14 DEC 2009

Status : Offline
$80!!! Why that's highway robbery, no game is worth $80 that's a lot of ribeye steaks and watermelons.           Edit
igital Xpress that means it doesn't even come with a printed manual.

Want is the foundation of impatience, a step without thought can be a drop without end


Dbeves: And LMFAO - didnt you just have to work battlefront into your response somewhere - you are priceless.

 

Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAycDqhog 

 

"ha! GL getting THAT much...lolz"


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:32pm

rmielech

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 471
Joined: 10 FEB 2005

Status : Offline
80 bucks is crazy. That means Making History 2 is my next purchase.

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:34pm

Wolverine101

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 4416
Joined: 14 DEC 2009

Status : Offline
How much is Making History 2 rmielech? Looks like that's for me also unless Storm over the Pacific comes first but if it's $80 forget it I'm not paying $80 for anything game wise. $80 for hardware upgrades yes but not just for one game.         Now I wait for the fanatics who will start using the analogies of going to the movies and out to eat and how you'd spend that in one weekend bs.

Want is the foundation of impatience, a step without thought can be a drop without end


Dbeves: And LMFAO - didnt you just have to work battlefront into your response somewhere - you are priceless.

 

Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAycDqhog 

 

"ha! GL getting THAT much...lolz"


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:40pm

tgb123

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1474
Joined: 13 NOV 2009

Status : Offline
[img]http://sgvtribune.mycapture.com/PHOTOS/SGVT/597425/20467384E.jpg[/img]

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:44pm

Erik Rutins

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 730
Joined: 12 JUL 2006

Status : Offline
The price is accurate and I'm sure it's a bit of a surprise as it's higher than the current COTA price by $20.  However, with the time each of these releases takes development-wise and the attention to detail required for this level of historical realism, we see these as more on the same level with a title like War in the Pacific now.  We believe that the additional development time, scenarios and full editing suite provided make this title easily worth $20 more than COTA. We feel BFTB is one of the highest quality wargames on the market, period. With that level of development effort, frankly the higher price is necessary if we want to make it viable for Panther to continue investing as much effort into future releases. Regards, - Erik

Director of Product Development

 

The Wargamers Tournament: Phase One Combatant Medal


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:55pm

gabeeg

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 318
Joined: 20 JAN 2010
Location: US, California

Status : Offline
I was going to purchase this game the day of release...been really, really looking forward to it.   I am not saying I will never buy it...I still want it and if the reviews start pouring in about it being better than sliced bread and the Mod community jumps in with both feet...I will more than likely get it.  BUT, I will not be buying it today...and I do believe 80.00+ dollars is at least 20.00 more than is reasonable...no matter the quality and development costs ( if dev costs really mean it has to be 80 bucks...this was poor planning on someones part).  Maybe this years or next years Christmas sale...         I am a Matrix fan boy...but this is a disappointment and IMHO a mistake.

gabeeg


Profile Search


26 MAY 2010 at 2:57pm

Steveski

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 365
Joined: 16 MAR 2008

Status : Offline
Originally Posted By Erik Rutins
The price is accurate and I'm sure it's a bit of a surprise as it's higher than the current COTA price by $20.  However, with the time each of these releases takes development-wise and the attention to detail required for this level of historical realism, we see these as more on the same level with a title like War in the Pacific now.  We believe that the additional development time, scenarios and full editing suite provided make this title easily worth $20 more than COTA. We feel BFTB is one of the highest quality wargames on the market, period. With that level of development effort, frankly the higher price is necessary if we want to make it viable for Panther to continue investing as much effort into future releases. Regards, - Erik
Even if that is all true its not much consolation if you can't sell many copies at that price.  There are simply too many good games out there at 50%-60% of that price.

We have nothing to fear but beer itself.


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 2:59pm

Mikeck

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1454
Joined: 28 DEC 2008

Status : Offline
and without a big'ol printed manual??         Hell, I'm not a student and I have money and I cant see paying $80 for a digital download. Come'on...$100 (after shipping/tax) for a hard copy? really?           EDIT: Erik, does the Hardcopy come with a manual? Printouts of PDF's at Fedex is more cash...

"love is preserved by link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails."


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:02pm

Azzurri

General
General



Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky

Status : Offline
That price is steeper than Dolly Parton's ta ta's....           And this is coming from a person never worrried about price when it comes to PC'ing....but gee whiz....

It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:08pm

Azzurri

General
General



Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky

Status : Offline
edit

It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:08pm

Erik Rutins

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 730
Joined: 12 JUL 2006

Status : Offline
I posted a bit more on our forum, which I'll copy here as well: Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car". Similarly, this is close to the price of many mass-market console games these days, which have far better economies of scale than a niche wargame can achieve. I'm truly sorry that this has put some of you off, but this is only $20 more than COTA and the quality and value of this release is IMHO higher, especially with the full editing tools included. With that said, I'm sure there will be a sale at some point in the non-near future, but in the meantime the reality is that this is the price a wargame like this needs to sell at in order to make wargames like this possible. This is also the price of games like WITP AE and while we do release many games that are priced lower they generally have commensurately less development time and cost. Each game and developer has a different business model.    The model for this game is the highest possible quality and realism in every respect, from research on maps, scenarios and units to the performance of the AI and the general playability, stability, polish and documentation of the game. I don't think I've worked with any developers that put a higher emphasis on quality than Panther does and frankly the time it takes to do that also has a cost. I've seen many comments on other games that wished for better scenarios, better AI, better testing or better documentation or just generally higher quality. All of that is here, I don't think you will find a single rough edge, but the additional $20-$30 over many other game prices is what that costs in order for this to be a viable ongoing business plan for this series. Regards, - Erik   

Director of Product Development

 

The Wargamers Tournament: Phase One Combatant Medal


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:11pm

Azzurri

General
General



Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky

Status : Offline
Originally Posted By Erik Rutins
        I posted a bit more on our forum, which I'll copy here as well:         Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car". Similarly, this is close to the price of many mass-market console games these days, which have far better economies of scale than a niche wargame can achieve.         I'm truly sorry that this has put some of you off, but this is only $20 more than COTA and the quality and value of this release is IMHO higher, especially with the full editing tools included.         With that said, I'm sure there will be a sale at some point in the non-near future, but in the meantime the reality is that this is the price a wargame like this needs to sell at in order to make wargames like this possible. This is also the price of games like WITP AE and while we do release many games that are priced lower they generally have commensurately less development time and cost. Each game and developer has a different business model.         The model for this game is the highest possible quality and realism in every respect, from research on maps, scenarios and units to the performance of the AI and the general playability, stability, polish and documentation of the game. I don't think I've worked with any developers that put a higher emphasis on quality than Panther does and frankly the time it takes to do that also has a cost. I've seen many comments on other games that wished for better scenarios, better AI, better testing or better documentation or just generally higher quality. All of that is here, I don't think you will find a single rough edge, but the additional $20-$30 over many other game prices is what that costs in order for this to be a viable ongoing business plan for this series.         Regards,         - Erik    
        Fair enough Eric and thank you for your passion and honesty.           Question: is this more difficult to learn than WitP???

It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:18pm

Wodin

Commander
Commander



Posts : 2325
Joined: 18 JAN 2006
Location: UK, Liverpool

Status : Offline
I'm a devoted fan of the series and I've been priced out.....         I'm really fed up...so looking forward to this game...         If a fan of the series wont pay what after tax nearly £70 for the game there is no way new blood will buy...         This could be the death of the series....awful pricing policy.

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:19pm

ComradeP

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 6889
Joined: 1 JUL 2006
Location: NL

Status : Offline
After the price discussion that haunted the release of ATD2, this isn't really good from a PR standpoint. War in the Pacific/War in the Pacific: Admiral's edition doesn't really have a comparable game, Uncommon Valor is WitP ultra light if anything. I can think of at least a dozen Ardenness 1944-1945 scenarios for a wide variety of games. Personally, I feel company level wargames are often uneccesarily complicated, just like I'm not really inclined to buy HPS titles as I'm not convinced the games would be worse if they would use a regimental scale. I prefer a wargame over a puzzle with thousands of pieces. That is, however, just my personal preference. Even though there seem to be 27 scenarios, I'm guessing they're all in the fairly small area of the Ardennes. As such, even though the player can replay scenarios or pick a different one, they'll always be confronted with the same terrain. HTTR and especially COTA had more variety. I didn't buy those titles either, so I might just be missing out on a fantastic experience, but they didn't really convince me. When COTA was released my focus wasn't on Unternehmen Marita and I had Battlefront and scenarios for other games for the Market Garden experience. I will be buying WitE because there's basically no modern game like it, WiR being fairly old and not entirely comparable. If the ideas used in HTTR/COTA/BFTB would be used for a battalion scale Fall Gelb/Fall Rot, Eastern Front, Italy or possibly a company level Northern Africa game, I'd be really happy, but currently they're just not unique enough for me to buy, they don't fill any void. The AI might possibly be the best out there as advertised and I really like some of the features, but I just can't give myself a good enough reason to buy it. The price wouldn't be really problematic if it would add something new to my wargaming experience. If you guys would charge 150 euro's for WitE, I will probably still buy it without even blinking if it's as good as it seems to be. Having said that, I hope the people that do buy BFTB will have a great time with it, the engine and features are promising, just not my cup of tea.

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:22pm

DBeves

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1327
Joined: 26 OCT 2004

Status : Offline
Originally Posted By Erik Rutins
        I posted a bit more on our forum, which I'll copy here as well:         Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car". Similarly, this is close to the price of many mass-market console games these days, which have far better economies of scale than a niche wargame can achieve.         I'm truly sorry that this has put some of you off, but this is only $20 more than COTA and the quality and value of this release is IMHO higher, especially with the full editing tools included.         With that said, I'm sure there will be a sale at some point in the non-near future, but in the meantime the reality is that this is the price a wargame like this needs to sell at in order to make wargames like this possible. This is also the price of games like WITP AE and while we do release many games that are priced lower they generally have commensurately less development time and cost. Each game and developer has a different business model.         The model for this game is the highest possible quality and realism in every respect, from research on maps, scenarios and units to the performance of the AI and the general playability, stability, polish and documentation of the game. I don't think I've worked with any developers that put a higher emphasis on quality than Panther does and frankly the time it takes to do that also has a cost. I've seen many comments on other games that wished for better scenarios, better AI, better testing or better documentation or just generally higher quality. All of that is here, I don't think you will find a single rough edge, but the additional $20-$30 over many other game prices is what that costs in order for this to be a viable ongoing business plan for this series.         Regards,         - Erik    
        Yes Erik - good luck with the game - I seriously hope your view that you you should charge what you think it is worth for the game rather than what people are prepared to pay for it is a pricing model that works for you ... ferarris dont cost that much to make eric - its just that people are prepared to pay it for the the badge - I cant think the same holds true for a wargame..

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:23pm

JudgeDredd

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1873
Joined: 5 MAR 2006
Location: UK

Status : Offline
Erik         I'm sad you've said this as you've just confirmed for me a complete checkout from the entire Panther games series...I simply cannot justify that kind of money for a computer game.         Just one point though...you said it's on a par now with WitP? And that it's of the highest quality - why no printed manual? When you came up with your Digital Express/Standard and Collectro editions, you said Digital Express was for the games that generally were at the lower end of the gaming market be that through mechanics or sales - if this is so high quality - why no full colour manual like WitP:AE?         I'm gutted you've taken this pricing route.

Profile Search


26 MAY 2010 at 3:26pm

DBeves

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1327
Joined: 26 OCT 2004

Status : Offline
of the series....awful pricing
Originally Posted By Wodin
        I'm a devoted fan of the series and I've been priced out.....         I'm really fed up...so looking forward to this game...         If a fan of the series wont pay what after tax nearly £70 for the game there is no way new blood will buy...         This could be the death of the series....awful pricing policy.    
        After tax its over 75 for the game

Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:26pm

Azzurri

General
General



Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky

Status : Offline
Originally Posted By DBeves
             
        ... ferarris dont cost that much to make eric - its just that people are prepared to pay it for the the badge               Hey, but it is Italian...enough said!

It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:29pm

phredd1

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1085
Joined: 10 SEP 2006

Status : Offline
Originally Posted By Erik Rutins
I posted a bit more on our forum, which I'll copy here as well: Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car". Similarly, this is close to the price of many mass-market console games these days, which have far better economies of scale than a niche wargame can achieve. I'm truly sorry that this has put some of you off, but this is only $20 more than COTA and the quality and value of this release is IMHO higher, especially with the full editing tools included. With that said, I'm sure there will be a sale at some point in the non-near future, but in the meantime the reality is that this is the price a wargame like this needs to sell at in order to make wargames like this possible. This is also the price of games like WITP AE and while we do release many games that are priced lower they generally have commensurately less development time and cost. Each game and developer has a different business model.    The model for this game is the highest possible quality and realism in every respect, from research on maps, scenarios and units to the performance of the AI and the general playability, stability, polish and documentation of the game. I don't think I've worked with any developers that put a higher emphasis on quality than Panther does and frankly the time it takes to do that also has a cost. I've seen many comments on other games that wished for better scenarios, better AI, better testing or better documentation or just generally higher quality. All of that is here, I don't think you will find a single rough edge, but the additional $20-$30 over many other game prices is what that costs in order for this to be a viable ongoing business plan for this series. Regards, - Erik
Thanks for being upfront and honest with your response.  I'd like to buy this game and if the economy/job situation were better, I would. But War in the East and World in Flames are my priorities so that's what the change bucket is working on.

One mistake, and you're sliding down the razor blade of defeat, and a dull, rusted, and poisoned blade at that.


Profile Search
26 MAY 2010 at 3:33pm

Wolverine101

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 4416
Joined: 14 DEC 2009

Status : Offline
Just one point though...you said it's on a par now with WitP? And that it's of the highest quality - why no printed manual? When you came up with your Digital Express/Standard and Collectro editions, you said Digital Express was for the games that generally were at the lower end of the gaming market be that through mechanics or sales - if this is so high quality - why no full colour manual like WitP:AE?      
        Excellent points Judge as I was wondering the same thing how an $80 game and $90 plus for the physical game doesn't even come with a printed manual.     I think this time they've priced this game series right off the map.         Sadly and though I don't condone it nor will I become a part of it I would wager this will become Matrixgames most pirated game released because of the price though not because of DRM.

Want is the foundation of impatience, a step without thought can be a drop without end


Dbeves: And LMFAO - didnt you just have to work battlefront into your response somewhere - you are priceless.

 

Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAycDqhog 

 

"ha! GL getting THAT much...lolz"


Profile Search
All Forums : [GAMES] : Computer Gaming > Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge - Released !

    Page 1 of 17 :

Jump to:
0 Members Subscribed To This Topic