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Topic: Sorry Dave - HAL the Killer Drone

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All Forums : [GENERAL] : General Discussion : Current Events > Sorry Dave - HAL the Killer Drone

#1 10 OCT 2006 at 3:25pm
MIGMaster Commander Posts : 2123 Joined: 4 MAY 2003 Status : Offline	interesting piece from the Jane's website: DoD group seeks to give autonomy to armed drones By Stephen Trimble JDW Americas Bureau Chief Washington, DC A proposal, unveiled publicly in September but never before publicised, would give "armed autonomous systems" the authority to shoot to destroy hostile weapon systems but not suspected combatants. Accordingly, any people killed or injured in the attack would be considered the collateral damage of a successful strike on a legitimate target. "If you stop and think about what this is, it really is a new paradigm for conducting warfare," John S Canning, a chief engineer at the Naval Surface Warfare Center and one of the authors of the proposal, told Jane's on 3 October. However, experts on the laws of war contacted by Jane's were not persuaded that the group's proposal would pass legal review. The chance that innocent civilians or even a disproportionate number of combatants could be killed by the misjudgment of a robotic system would still be the over-riding factor. "You better have a human looking through that screen", before the unmanned system takes a shot, said Gary Solis, who recently retired as the law of war professor at the US Military Academy. The laws of armed conflict require that for any attack to be legitimate, the attacker must be able to discriminate between combatants and civilians, as well as avoid creating damage that is disproportionate to the threat. "We like our women like our gaming - Hardcore !" LongBlade, circa 2008
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#2 10 OCT 2006 at 3:50pm
Les the Sarge 9-1 Commander Posts : 1262 Joined: 23 AUG 2003 Status : Online	"The laws of armed conflict require that for any attack to be legitimate, the attacker must be able to discriminate between combatants and civilians, as well as avoid creating damage that is disproportionate to the threat." See this is why the whole concept of the Geneva Convention is a crock of shit. With the above logic, we should be forcing the world's nations to ditch nuclear weapons. After all, how exactly does one expect to "discriminate between combatants and civilians" with a nuclear warhead eh. If I have resolved that your nation's citizenry is ok to shoot at with intent to kill, then anyone labelled a citizen of said country is an acceptable target as far as I am concerned. I don't care if they were holding a weapon or not. This account for sale. You're just going to have to deal with conversing with me on properly administered forums. The 5% minority here is not worth it.
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#3 10 OCT 2006 at 4:11pm
Kirksone Centurion Posts : 23 Joined: 12 NOV 2005 Status : Online	Yeah just throw out the Geneva convention. And fight wars like the Eastern Front as the convention was ignored by both sides. Yeah killer robots whom cannot tell the difference between friend and foe or soldier and non combatant. Please what a plie of steaming rubbish we have laws for a reason war can get out of hand and the Geneva Convention is better than nothing and if the other side ignores it so what theres always the moral high ground if you become your enemy to fight him you lose. and there is no difference. "time is the fire in which we burn"
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#4 10 OCT 2006 at 5:31pm
Les the Sarge 9-1 Commander Posts : 1262 Joined: 23 AUG 2003 Status : Online	Once you have resolved to take another's life, you have already made the choice to ditch your "civilized" behaviour. There is no second place in nature, once it's kill or be killed, you can either be the one breathing, or the one not. I don't require bandaids for my conscience though. If I have a reason to war on another nation, I have a reason to go all the way too. This account for sale. You're just going to have to deal with conversing with me on properly administered forums. The 5% minority here is not worth it.
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#5 10 OCT 2006 at 7:06pm
logan40k Centurion Posts : 330 Joined: 9 JAN 2004 Location: US Status : Offline	I do not have any moral quandries about indiscriminate targets per se as I think most 'civilized' (whatever that means) nations do tend to try and limit civilian casulties. To avoid them entirely you need to avoid war. Actually though I am not in favor of smart weapons like this or three reasons. 1. War is an intensely personal business. The more impersonal we make it the more likely we are to use it frivolously. 2. A Drone cannot get upset over its friends' death. A Drone cannot be inspired. A drone cannot hang on by its fingernails. I know we often romanticize war and battle, probably we do it too much but there is a certain... something about the dark side of Humanity that is war that to divorce ourselves even further from it would be a mistake IMHO. Humans need to understand and comprehend war, especially those involved in it. 3. Finally a drone cannot defend itself from capture as effectively as a man and in today's information age, having a piece of tech is a big step in its development even for less advanced nations. Sean
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#6 12 OCT 2006 at 6:22am
the_redstar_swl Centurion Posts : 439 Joined: 19 MAR 2004 Status : Online	IMHO they should be used as support weapons, Two or three to a platoon with heavy weapons mounted on them. (M2HB Browning, Mk19 40mm GL, Ect) The internet: Because none of us is as cruel as all of us.
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#7 12 OCT 2006 at 8:41am
Les the Sarge 9-1 Commander Posts : 1262 Joined: 23 AUG 2003 Status : Online	My only apprehension about autonomous weapons is I am too well read in the area of repercusions of inventing machines capable of independent thought. Dune and I Robot are currently just stories, why make them not just stories though. Don't laugh, our brightest minds consider semi sentient autonomous machines among the top three of ways mankind might actually wipe himself out. And they weren't kidding. This account for sale. You're just going to have to deal with conversing with me on properly administered forums. The 5% minority here is not worth it.
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#8 12 OCT 2006 at 9:30am
djdemo Colonel Posts : 8465 Joined: 29 JUN 2004 Location: UK Status : Offline	ORIGINAL: Les the Sarge 9-1 See this is why the whole concept of the Geneva Convention is a crock of shit. With the above logic, we should be forcing the world's nations to ditch nuclear weapons. After all, how exactly does one expect to "discriminate between combatants and civilians" with a nuclear warhead eh. That's the point of the Non Proliferation Treaty, and is one of the arguments against Nuclear Weapons. Is it morally justafiable to hold hostage millions of civilians with weapons systems that have a 10 minute decision cycle. The concept of the Geneva Convetion is NOT a crock of shit, and thank god it exists, and has been used to regulate conflict, regulate the conduct of our troops, and then be used as a basis to bring people Like Saddam and Milosovic to justice. "To those looking for 'Victory' they know where they can find it; it's somewhere in the dictionary between the words Venereal and Virus."
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#9 12 OCT 2006 at 9:33am
djdemo Colonel Posts : 8465 Joined: 29 JUN 2004 Location: UK Status : Offline	ORIGINAL: Les the Sarge 9-1 Don't laugh, our brightest minds consider semi sentient autonomous machines among the top three of ways mankind might actually wipe himself out. And they weren't kidding. I agree... There is a cool film set in the cold war where the US and USSR each build a super computer to run their nuclear weapons (yep, this film came out in the 70's before Terminator) - anyway, the US computer asks to be linked to the USSR computer. They talk and begin to interface in equations the humans can't read, so they cut the links. The USSR and US computers each launch a nuke and say they will only destroy the warhead if the link is established. The humans concede... the computers then merge their interlect and declare themselves global rulers and say that they will wipe out war, eliminate hunger - and in time, HUmans will come to love the Machines. I believe that if a Machine looked at how we conduct our affairs they would either elimate us, or put us into recievership and manage human affairs more efficently themselves. "To those looking for 'Victory' they know where they can find it; it's somewhere in the dictionary between the words Venereal and Virus."
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Topic: Sorry Dave - HAL the Killer Drone

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