| 16 NOV 2006 at 12:53pm |
Barkhorn1xCenturion
Posts : 513
Joined: 1 OCT 2003
Status : Offline | Seems like I am agreeing w/ you in two different threads Boggit. M2TW looks like it would have benefited from at least another month of bug identification/sqaushing before release.
I am still going to buy (don't even ask why I don't have it now [:-]) as the positives far outnumber the negatives. But, once again, one cannot escape the conclusion that CA ranks graphics ahead of gameplay. There are just too many instances of Campaign weirdness that have come to light over the past week for one not to wonder why these weren't caught and fixed prior to release. (BTW, I am not too worried about the Battle TAC AI as a CA dev. has provided a detailed account of its evolution and committed to fixing in the first patch).
Barkhorn.
[b][image]http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/Barkhorn1x_2006/sign3e.jpg[/image]
[/b]
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| 16 NOV 2006 at 2:23pm |
Duke of WellingtonCenturion
Posts : 18
Joined: 1 MAY 2006
Status : Online | Well I have been playing M2TW for a week as England.I was not going to buy this game after RTW. But I'm glad I did.
The barebones are there to build something amazing.I just hope CA do.
They said the Passive AI will be fixed.And if they fix the AI defending their cities/castles with bigger armies.
[I have only encountered the stand around while being fired at AI bug 2x out of 20+ battles].
Then we will be having a much tougher time of it.
I have been playing the series since MTW,and played Shogun to.I have been surprised by some of the AI tactics.
You know the moment,when it puts a smile on your face.I lost my first battle,a siege taking Dijon. 700 English v 1000 French.
Well they cut my boys down,and chased me backout through the castle gates.And across the fields.
My 2nd army then moved out of their fort and hit with 800,the French king died and the faction was dust.
I'm playing on Hard/Hard. You need a nice pc to take adavntage of the beauty this game deilvers to the eye.
11GB's on install.I could end up having 11 GB's of M2TW in my screenshot/picture folder.
If you are in doubt wait for the first patch in a couple of weeks. I am 41,just played TC2M.And have those TW
dark rings around my eyes already.
"Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war!"
Rested and eager for battle sir!!!
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| 16 NOV 2006 at 2:40pm |
marvingardCommander
Posts : 2826
Joined: 13 APR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Long time, no post Duke. []
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| 16 NOV 2006 at 3:13pm |
OlegCenturion
Posts : 360
Joined: 15 MAR 2004
Location: HR
Status : Offline |
ORIGINAL: Kid
You guys got me intrested in Crusader Kings so I went and looked it up. I saw the words real-time in its description and those are very negitive words to me. So, how is it a RT game?
It's HOI set in middle ages, if you liked HOI you may like this one too, if you didn't - (quoting Jarhead []) move on......
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| 16 NOV 2006 at 3:23pm |
OlegCenturion
Posts : 360
Joined: 15 MAR 2004
Location: HR
Status : Offline |
ORIGINAL: marvingardns
Personally, I think "bargaining" with an AI is the most mindless, pointless and time-wasting thing ever.
LOL how true!
As I get older I have no problems with "games designed for 12 year olds" - after all I happily play Battlefield 2142...... but I do have problems with campaigns in most games, providing faux strategic-diplomatic-whatever layer to tactical games. This is a problem I have with whole bunch of games, from Galactic Civilizations to Space Empires to Crusader Kings to Distant Guns (which does not have diplomacy but has other problems in the campaign design). If you can't play the campaign vs other humans, what's the point??
I mildly enjoyed battles in RTW (warts and all), but playing diplomatic-strategic layer against the AI, that's sorta pointless.
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| 16 NOV 2006 at 3:36pm |
Duke of WellingtonCenturion
Posts : 18
Joined: 1 MAY 2006
Status : Online | ORIGINAL: marvingardns
Long time, no post Duke. []
Thanks marvingardns,nice to be remembered.For the few posts I made.I went back into lurk mode.And a little thing called an NFL season got in the way.[&o]
Well I'm off to send my English Prince to assault Jerusalem after a days siege.This crusade should bring us back into line with the Pope.Killing French christians just doesn't sit well with him.[]
Rested and eager for battle sir!!!
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| 16 NOV 2006 at 10:25pm |
kellysheroesCommander
Posts : 1722
Joined: 29 OCT 2003
Status : Online | ORIGINAL: Oleg
ORIGINAL: Kid
You guys got me intrested in Crusader Kings so I went and looked it up. I saw the words real-time in its description and those are very negitive words to me. So, how is it a RT game?
It's HOI set in middle ages, if you liked HOI you may like this one too, if you didn't - (quoting Jarhead []) move on......
I would say it's more like EU II set in the middle ages than that crappy HOI game. That's like insulting the game to call it HOIlike.
@Oleg, actually in Crusader Kings the strong alliances were modeled very well. I certainly didn't get backstabbed by them as I constantly did in the TW series. Playing as Sweden I most often had alliances with Scottland and by golly when I got into a skirmish they came to help (though I didn't help them that often) And playing as a "vassal" if I got myself into a war, the King would come and bring the other factions to help. I am very impressed with the diplomatic AI of "Crusader Kings".
@KID, I am probably one of the most diehard RTS game haters around. But, I assure you that the real time in Crusader Kings can be set soooooo slow that you won't hardly even notice that it's playing in real time. The "very slow" setting is just that and the months just crawl by and you'll have plenty of time to do all the things that you are allowed to do. Even so it can be "paused" *gahhh i hate that word*, but, I use it occassionally when I need to goto the bathroom or find a bride for my family heirs or liege. I recently added CK to my enjoyable rts games list. I have 5 now. Sid Meiers Civil War series, Kohan series, Sacrifice, The 7 Kingdoms and now CK. Very small list, but, these games were designed with the proper speed of time to play them. TC2M is borderline, I'm still trying to decide if it's just too much movie watching and not enough gameplay. It's great for movie watching though. lol Just take some small unit like an artillery detachment and just watch the AI play itself.
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 10:50am |
SyagriusCenturion
Posts : 377
Joined: 22 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Something I noticed looking at the screenshots is that it seems there is far less provinces than in the original MTW. Less provinces = less time of play and less fun in my opinion [:-]
The soldiers swear they will obey the Emperor willingly and implicitly in all his commands, that they will never desert and will always be ready to sacrifice their lives for the Roman Empire.
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 10:57am |
AAshbery76Centurion
Posts : 958
Joined: 15 MAR 2004
Location: UK
Status : Offline | CrusaderKings is great therapy for [size="-1"]insomnia.[/size]
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 11:17am |
KriegspielerCenturion
Posts : 643
Joined: 5 JAN 2005
Status : Offline | Interesting thread here, folks. Thanks for helping me decide whether to buy MTW2 (I won't[]).
Just a comment about Crusader Kings. In some ways, I consider it Paradox's most interesting and most disappointing game, because the idea behind it of dynastic politics is brilliant, but the rest of the game is not well enough executed to be the classic medieval game it ought to be. Many of you know the history of this game: it was to be a joint venture between Paradox and some Russian company ("Snowflake" or something), mid-way through development the Russians disappeared, leaving Paradox holding the bag, with developers and betas running around like mad trying to get it ready for release.
When EU3 is released early next year, I hope Paradox decides to return to Crusader Kings for a fully reworked release. The interest surrounding MTW2 shows there is an ample market for medieval games, but it appears that we still await one that can adequately cover something other than the tactical scale. (My other hope of course is that they decide to do a Victoria 2, which might seem a little more plausible after the successful and unexpected publication of the Revolutions expansion pack.)
Getting too old to do this!
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 11:26am |
kellysheroesCommander
Posts : 1722
Joined: 29 OCT 2003
Status : Online | It appears to me Crusader Kings does what it sets out to do though and that is "dynasty building" vs conquer the world. Since the victory conditions are more set on prestige and piety it's not impossible to win the game without conquering the map. It takes careful timing and really doing things for your heirs moreso than the liege or king. The most prestige comes from "crusading" not really trying to take over England, Germany, France etc. It's not a wargame really as much as it is a dynasty building simulation game to me. I like it cause I really like those types of games as well as wargames. It's to me like The Sims goes to War lol the events are hilarious sometimes and love to strike you when you don't need them too like your steward stealing your 4k cash and booking it. In a time of war that's a killer. The family portion of the game is way more indepth than the Total War series. All wives and daughters looking the same in RTW really put a damper on that part of the game and they really were nothing more than sp**m banks. CK's gives life to all characters in a fun way.
STRATEGY & TACTICS: http://www.decisiongames.com/mags/st.htm
BUY GAMES:w/FREE SHIPPING
http://www.amazon.com
GOgamer 48 hour Madness Sales:
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I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 11:29am |
KriegspielerCenturion
Posts : 643
Joined: 5 JAN 2005
Status : Offline | ORIGINAL: kellysheroes
It appears to me Crusader Kings does what it sets out to do though and that is "dynasty building" vs conquer the world. Since the victory conditions are more set on prestige and piety it's not impossible to win the game without conquering the map. It takes careful timing and really doing things for your heirs moreso than the liege or king. The most prestige comes from "crusading" not really trying to take over England, Germany, France etc. It's not a wargame really as much as it is a dynasty building simulation game to me. I like it cause I really like those types of games as well as wargames. It's to me like The Sims goes to War lol the events are hilarious sometimes and love to strike you when you don't need them too like your steward stealing your 4k cash and booking it. In a time of war that's a killer. The family portion of the game is way more indepth than the Total War series. All wives and daughters looking the same in RTW really put a damper on that part of the game and they really were nothing more than sp**m banks. CK's gives life to all characters in a fun way.
Good point about it being like the Sims.[]
Still, there are plenty of aspects of the game (such as the economics and warfare) that could be modeled in a more interesting way. That's why I'll keep my fingers crossed for it as P'dox's next major project.
Getting too old to do this!
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 11:39am |
marvingardCommander
Posts : 2826
Joined: 13 APR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I mildly enjoyed battles in RTW (warts and all), but playing diplomatic-strategic layer against the AI, that's sorta pointless.
Hmmm... if the AI won't accept 30 dinari a turn for piece, maybe it will accept 35? [:@]
I had always thought the [u]perfect[/u] diplomacy engine is one where negotiations are accomplished for you. You dispatch a diplomat with a certain "tone" (obsequious, respectful, aggressive), "approach" (unilateral, bilateral), and diplomatic objective (peace, alliance, trade, etc.), and depending on the skill of the negotiators, you are presented with a negotiated settlement which you can accept or refuse. If you don't like the deal, you can send another diplomat, or send the same one back with permission to "sweeten the deal." Where you choose to negotiate can affect the results (at court vs. someplace neutral), and your diplomat can have certain valuable skills to help with certain negotiations.
And furthermore, it would cost time and money to negotiate. Sending "gifts" and paying for travel and residence of a courtly diplomat can be expensive... and it could take months to develop a relationship. Sure you can send three skilled diplomats with a gift of a mechanical clock, a time frame of 5 years, your permission to negotiate up to 10,000 florins, and an armed escort (to prevent assassination), but it could be an expensive mission, or the armed escort could offend the foreign court and it could be immediately rejected, or you diplomats could even be taken hostage!
Whatever the case, your choice in this diplomacy engine is "who" to send to negotiate for you, and what is the "maximum" they can offer. Then you can reject, accept or resend a mission. To me, that sound x200 better than "Hmmm... if the AI won't accept 30 dinari a turn for piece, maybe it will accept 35?"
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 11:55am |
OlegCenturion
Posts : 360
Joined: 15 MAR 2004
Location: HR
Status : Offline |
ORIGINAL: marvingardns
Whatever the case, your choice in this diplomacy engine is "who" to send to negotiate for you, and what is the "maximum" they can offer. Then you can reject, accept or resend a mission. To me, that sound x200 better than "Hmmm... if the AI won't accept 30 dinari a turn for piece, maybe it will accept 35?"
I am even more critical than that. Diplomacy unless done with humans is simply no diplomacy at all. No sense of acomplishment, no joy when backstabbing, no subtle mini-games and alliances within alliances, so what's the point? So that tactical battles would, somehow, make more sense to player?
I've never been a great fan of this campaign layer that's forced on so many excellent tactical engines just to make them more attractive to some parts of gaming crowd. I mean I can understand developers doing it, as it's obvious gaming public wants campaigns in games, but not me - a selection of independent scenarios without any campaign layer is usually perfectly OK to me.
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 12:23pm |
GusingtonGeneral
Posts : 18089
Joined: 16 AUG 2004
Location: US, USMA
Status : Offline | That's a great system description, MG, and IIRC sort of similar to what was employed in - yes, you guessed it - Centurion: Defender of Rome. That game was more ahead of its time than I ever thought. [:'(]
I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon.
- Rayfer
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 12:31pm |
kellysheroesCommander
Posts : 1722
Joined: 29 OCT 2003
Status : Online | Yup there's a very close resemblance to the diplomacy in CDoR in what he's asking for. You could go back in forth to a country turn after turn until you hit on the right diplomacy sequence as well as gain trust points by not attacking them. Very good diplomacy feature in CDoR and look how old that game is. I loved the arena battles and chariot races too, lol, I usually always fell off my chariot around that first turn though I suked at it. haha
STRATEGY & TACTICS: http://www.decisiongames.com/mags/st.htm
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 12:36pm |
GusingtonGeneral
Posts : 18089
Joined: 16 AUG 2004
Location: US, USMA
Status : Offline | The chariot racing was much more difficult than the gladitorial combats. My 16 year old brain did not realize at the time what a gem Centurion really was. Or maybe I was much less difficult to please then. Or maybe I'm more jaded now.
I think if I were 16 now and just getting into gaming my head would explode upon seeing a game like M2TW. Its good every now and then to remember how far gaming has come.
I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon.
- Rayfer
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 12:59pm |
kellysheroesCommander
Posts : 1722
Joined: 29 OCT 2003
Status : Online | I agree the eye candy alone is enough to sell MTW2....at 12 years old I wasn't too concerned about "challenge" either as much as I was the historical maps and counters that came with the boardgames. I don't know how many times I just setup games to see the pieces out there in all their glory on those 2 color maps lol. I loved minatures as well, but, couldn't afford them. I could afford games like Milton Bradleys "Broadsides", "Battle-Cry" and "Dogfight" for my minatures fix. I used to watch my friend play and he painted them as well. That's why I don't really mind the idea of 3D games, as long as it's "turn based" like the minature gaming of yesteryear. It's why I liked Koios's Tin Soldiers series until they did their most recent PGWS....I wanted them to stay in the ancients and perhaps medieval. They got the WWII bug and I don't think they are coming back from what one of the devs said over at Matrixgames.
I started computer gaming when it was 8 bit graphics, 2mb - 5mb games and if you had a 40mb hard-drive you were king of the hill. "Knights of the Desert" was my first computer wargame and I played the dog out of it and that is when "cassette" driven games were still being made. I couldn't afford a 5-1/4 floppy-drive for my C64 until after my son was born....man when I finally got that....it was computer gaming heaven. Combat Leader, Kampfgruppe, Computer Ambush, Battallion Commander, Gettysburg, Antietam, Shilo, Sons of Liberty, Battles of Napolean (<~two of the best early designed warlikegames of all time ~> War of the Lance. lol Just to name a few...Panzer Strike & Typhoon of Steel....mano mano the golden age of computer wargaming....Europe Ablaze, Carriors at War, Carrior Force, Midway, Bismark, Strategic Air Command...<sigh>....for some reason games today just don't match the "overall" quality of those games back then.
STRATEGY & TACTICS: http://www.decisiongames.com/mags/st.htm
BUY GAMES:w/FREE SHIPPING
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I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 2:27pm |
lifebegoodCenturion
Posts : 9
Joined: 10 MAY 2006
Status : Online | Load up was smooth. 25 Minutes.
No issues on my 3.0 GHz Older Dual Core, 1 GB RAM, 512 MB Nvidia Card.
After playing for 5 hours as the English, I am thoroughly hooked. This game far surpasses RTW in all aspects. The battles are just superb. Merchants are a nice addition and I am really digging on the differentiation between city and castle. Looking forward to my first crusade...
"When I turned 30, I cut diplomatic ties to the Pepsi Generation. If they want to contact me, they'll have to go through the Swiss."
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 2:40pm |
Jarhead0331Colonel
Posts : 8733
Joined: 24 MAY 2006
Location: 0, Texas
Status : Offline | ORIGINAL: lifebegood
After playing for 5 hours as the English, I am thoroughly hooked. This game far surpasses RTW in all aspects. The battles are just superb. Merchants are a nice addition and I am really digging on the differentiation between city and castle. Looking forward to my first crusade...
Agreed...The AI is better both strategically and tactically...I've previously described some tactical enhancements...but I've noticed even more...The AI is brutal at repelling castle assaults...they will man the walls, raise hell and then change to a fluid defensive strategy if and when the walls are actually breached...and let me tell you, you'll take losses breaching...I'm trying to sack a castle now whose defenders have thrown me back twice...
Strategic AI is more aggressive and cunning this time around...Spies will actually recon your defenses before sending in armies to siege...and then they will strike with ample force if they can...if not they will wait, or move on...
I remain optimistic...
"And They shall know no fear, for they are fear incarnate"
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 3:24pm |
GusingtonGeneral
Posts : 18089
Joined: 16 AUG 2004
Location: US, USMA
Status : Offline | Dammit...I still have not received my copy and still haven't even received an e-mail that it shipped. [:@]
I even have this weekend reserved as the family is away (except for the dog) and I was set to play the living hell out of this game.
Looks like I'll have to opt for other **ahem** adult entertainment. [:'(]
But the history dork in me wants to get going on M2TW above all else. Guess I'll just have to hurry up and wait.[]
I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon.
- Rayfer
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 5:18pm |
marvingardCommander
Posts : 2826
Joined: 13 APR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Offline | ok..ok,ok... I've got a secret to break... and its burn Gus with the red ass to hear it. I bought MTWII the day it came out. Bought it at EB for $50 and it includes all the bonus CD's. []
But I haven't even installed it yet cause I've been busy in the after hours. []
But its the weekend, and I'm giving it a shot tonight.
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 5:42pm |
NefaroColonel
Posts : 4640
Joined: 6 OCT 2003
Status : Offline | I don't know what all the complaining is about the strategic layer here is. I guess it's just preference.
Personally, I wouldn't have bought [i]any[/i] of the Total War series if it wasn't for the two different layers and especially the strategic layer. Otherwise they would've been yet another of the uncountable RTS games out there. [>
__________________________
Are you brave enough for 640kb?
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| 17 NOV 2006 at 6:20pm |
GusingtonGeneral
Posts : 18089
Joined: 16 AUG 2004
Location: US, USMA
Status : Offline | HA...you knew you would MG.
Well, I knew you would []
Have I mentioned mine still hasn't been delivered?
I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon.
- Rayfer
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