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Topic: Austro-Prussian War

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All Forums : [THE MILITARY ACADEMY] : Military History > Austro-Prussian War

#1 29 JUL 2007 at 1:58am
Red Lancer Centurion Posts : 49 Joined: 2 JAN 2007 Status : Online	I would like to find out more about this war. I have some questions: Could Austria have won the Austro-Prussian war? Could Austria have won the pivotal battle of Koniggratz? What would have happened if Austria had won the war? Any contribution would be appreciated. Thanks. After the Napoleonic Wars, one of the officers of the Old Guard, Noisot, had erected at his own expense a bronze monument to Napoleon. He arranged to be buried standing up a few yards so that he could continue to stand guard for eternity.
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#2 29 JUL 2007 at 9:59am
Sol Invictus Centurion Posts : 967 Joined: 6 APR 2005 Location: US Status : Offline	Read Geoffrey Wawro's, "The Austro-Prussian War", if you haven't already. It is an excellent book on the subject. I think if a few things had happened differently, Austria could certainly have won the war. The Battle of Koniggratz was a very close call and could have easily gone either way. The battle would certainly have had a different outcome if the Prussian 2nd Army had been a bit delayed in showing up. Of course, Prussia could still have won the war at a later date, but the possibility of mediation by the powers of Europe would have had a chance to impose some sort of settlement. With an Austian victory, almost certainly no Franco-Prussian War, possibly no WWI or WWII. Impossible to guess how things would have played out in Europe, but I think it is safe to say, very differently than they did. "The fruit of too much liberty is slavery" Cicero
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#3 29 JUL 2007 at 11:53am
Bismarck Colonel Posts : 4434 Joined: 31 MAY 2001 Location: US, Wisconsin Status : Offline	Fascinating question. Sol is correct; Wawro is the only book in English on the war worth speaking of and Koeniggraetz was indeed close. However, I would start my critique at the early Austrian deployment. The Prussian approach to Bohemia was a high risk/high yield proposition. Had the Austrians deployed more centrally, they might have defeated the Prussian columns individually. Of course, they would have also had to change their tactics from shock to missile which, in turn, would have meant different training for troops and officers (a truly thick bunch). So, no, I don't think Austria could have one. A game with a nice editor would still be a neat test bed. Jim Cobb, Ph. D. Adjunct Faculty, Cardinal Stritch University
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#4 29 JUL 2007 at 12:52pm
Gusington General Posts : 18089 Joined: 16 AUG 2004 Location: US, USMA Status : Offline	Yep, Geoffrey Wawro's book is great at giving a solid breakdown of the events of this war. If Prussia had lost it, well, who knows? Would it have made Bismarck more desperate and brought on further conflict sooner? Or would Bismarck change his tune and not turn into the Iron Chancellor we know of today? I think a lot of what would have occurred as a result of a Prussian defeat would depend on how it affected Bismarck. I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon. - Rayfer
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#5 29 JUL 2007 at 12:59pm
Bismarck Colonel Posts : 4434 Joined: 31 MAY 2001 Location: US, Wisconsin Status : Offline	Bismarck would have been out of power. The constitutional crisis over the military budget was still going on. The King had grave misgivings about the war anyway and even the conservatives always felt uncomfortable about him. Heretofore fence-sitters even in the king's circle would have joined the anti-Bismarck circle. Jim Cobb, Ph. D. Adjunct Faculty, Cardinal Stritch University
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#6 29 JUL 2007 at 1:04pm
Besilarius Commander Posts : 1543 Joined: 14 NOV 2003 Status : Offline	A very good book on the era, and with a lot of information on the Austrians, is out of print, but can often be found through used dealers, The Art of War from Waterloo to Mons, by William McElwee. This is an expansion of the course he gave at Sandhurst, and is just full of interesting tidbits for this one hundred year span. The Austrians were hamstrung by their reversion to Napoleonic shock tactics following the Italian war. Also, their leadership was generally poorer than average, even for this period. However, with more dynamic leadership, they very likely could have used the central position to engage the Prussians at an advantage. This comes down to the basic problem with all Austrian military endeavors. Most leaders were picked for their loyalty and influence, than for ability. The Austrians had long given up on military adventurism (except against the even more woeful Turkish) and just wished to be left alone. Since nationalism was fiercely on the rise in this time, that hope was chimerical. After Metternich and Radetzky, the leadership was generally inept. The Foreign Minister during the Crimean War, Buol, managed to anger both sides and nearly bankrupted the country by mobilising the army. Had the entire army descended into Rumnia, the main theater of conflict before the English and French relocated to the Crimea, Austria could have thrown the war either way by shear numbers and better logistic lines. Instead, they sat and waited for someone to offer them a great deal. No one did, so they lost out on every potential that existed. They came within a hair of defeating the French in the Italian War of 1859. Taking the wrong lessons, they gave up their firepower tactics and adopted the shock tactics of the French. Strategically, Moltke gambled on the habitual slowness of the Austrian mobilisation. In this he was aided by Franz Josef moving Benedek, his Italian army commander, to Bohemia. Totally unfamiliar with the main front, and quite overwhelmed by the size of the army, Benedek did not perform well. However, Koniggratz could have been a truly pyrrhic victory for the Prussians. The two corps on the Austrian right were emplaced in very strong positions if the Second Prussian Army joined in the battle. Unfortunately, the Prussians on this front were very energetic and both Austrian corps moved forward, like Sickles at Getysburg, and were fought out and out of position when the flanking Prussians showed up. Benedek had focused entirely on the central area of the army, which had been looking like a solid Austrian win. He had been controlling the span he was used to ( a couple of corps), and let the right flank fight its own battle without any direction from him. "When I must choose an officer to perform an act that requires a good brain, everything else being equal, I choose the one with the biggest nose." - Napoleon "If you'll believe that, you'll believe anything." - the Duke of Wellington
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#7 29 JUL 2007 at 1:07pm
Jim_LineofDeparture Commander Posts : 1451 Joined: 5 OCT 2006 Status : Online	Martin van Creveld has an excellent chapter on the Austro-Prussian War in his book Command in War. By all rights, Austria could have and should have won, and the smart money was on them, not the upstart Prussians. It was a decisive Prussian victory achieved in six weeks, but that outcome was hardly inevitable. Jim Werbaneth [link=http://www.jimwerbaneth.com/lod]OnLine of Departure[/link] [link=http://www.jimwerbaneth.com/wargames]Wargames by Jim Werbaneth[/link]
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#8 30 JUL 2007 at 4:42am
ComradeP Colonel Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline	What must not be forgotten is that the Austro-Prussian war wasn't only fought between Austria and Prussia, but rather between the two main combatants and the various German states/kingdoms that sided with one of them. Even if the Prussians would have lost at Koniggratz, which is unlikely to begin with: a draw would've been more likely (the Austrians didn't have the infantry firepower to break the Prussian line decisively), there would still be more combat ready Prussian troops, whilst the Austrians would've had a large group of fairly exhausted troops. For an example of what would've happened after the likely draw at Koniggratz, one could look at the Seven Years War: even though Prussia was being hammered from 4 sides in the end, the Austrians didn't make any significant gains at all and in the end the Russians were in Berlin, not the Austrians. The almost obligatory poor quality Austrian leaders would have been similar to the Austrian leaders in the Seven Years War. It is not likely that they would have achieved more than their predecessors. In the meantime, there's no realistic scenario where Prussia could not have won against Austria's German allies eventually, so Austria would have been severely limited in freedom of movement in Germany proper. As an indication of just how one sided the war between Prussia and the Austria's German allies was: the Hanoverians won a decent victory at the Second Battle of Langensalza, after which they were compelled to surrender by a Prussian force of some 40.000 men. The Bavarians faired little better: after some initial defeats, part of their army holed up in Würzburg. Those troops were worth about as much as the French Army of the Rhine that holed up in Metz during the Franco-Prussian war. Unless other European powers intervened, Prussia would still conquer most of Germany regardless of what would happen at Koniggratz. Both sides would probably claim victory, but in the end most of Germany would be Prussian and the Austrians would still have fairly solid control over their own territory. Ironically enough, that would have made Prussia/Germany and Austria better partners in the First World War.
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#9 31 JUL 2007 at 10:03pm
Fallschirmjäger Commander Posts : 2718 Joined: 31 JUL 2005 Location: NZ Status : Offline	I dont know why but i favour or am interested in the franco prussian war more than the austro one,and [b][color=#333333]ComradeP[/color][/b] remind me did bavaria side with the austrians in this war and the saxony too maybe?,i seem to remember reading the prussians fighting them in maybe this war. Like the franco prussian war,no german states sided with the french right at all i forget now fro shure,a all german or prussian attack mostly,or wait with the bavarians and saxons etc...attacking with them im shure?as germany not a country yet when the war started right but 1871?. Well i should have done this first,but searched and see i was right about the bavarians and saxons being on austria's side,but also added baden and wurttenberg and hanover and other minor german states too.And prussia had italy and other minor german states with it too,i dont like it realy when the germans fought each other.Like also have seen how this happended in the napoleonic wars or others around that time era where germans fought each other with other nations like britan,france etc..and most likely on there own too.And see for the franco prussian war it was the NGC(north german confederation) and southern german states(later german empire) that fought against france in the franco prussian war.[ ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Confederation Fallschirmjäger
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#10 31 JUL 2007 at 11:04pm
Red Lancer Centurion Posts : 49 Joined: 2 JAN 2007 Status : Online	Thanks to all who replied. Just one more question, the ferocious cavalry engagement that took place at Koniggratz had any influence on the outcome of the battle? After the Napoleonic Wars, one of the officers of the Old Guard, Noisot, had erected at his own expense a bronze monument to Napoleon. He arranged to be buried standing up a few yards so that he could continue to stand guard for eternity.
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#11 1 AUG 2007 at 11:31am
Besilarius Commander Posts : 1543 Joined: 14 NOV 2003 Status : Offline	The cavalry fighting seems to have saved the Austrian infantry from wholesale breakup. At the end of the day, pretty much all the Austrian infantry and artillery had been fought out. If the Prussians had gotten their cavalry into the retreating columns, then a rout was very likely. The sacrifice of the cavalry allowed the army to survive. Having said that, there is one account in which a Prussian cavalry unit attacked an Austrian infantry battlaion. The author says they cut through the middle of the unit, but it then moved off as two half battalions. I feel pretty safe in saying this was a unit that was moving in standard Austrian battalionsmasse formation. This consisted of three companies in deep lines, the battalion headquarters-flags-band, and then three more companies in lines. The unit could easily break into the next tactical sized unit, a divisionsmasse of three companies. The cavalry thought they had cut through a whole unit, but actually slid through the gap between two half-battalions. (Being Austrian, and therefore thorough anachronists, this masse system was invented and put in place by Archduke Charles after 1804, to fight Napoleon.) "When I must choose an officer to perform an act that requires a good brain, everything else being equal, I choose the one with the biggest nose." - Napoleon "If you'll believe that, you'll believe anything." - the Duke of Wellington
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#12 1 AUG 2007 at 11:58am
Bismarck Colonel Posts : 4434 Joined: 31 MAY 2001 Location: US, Wisconsin Status : Offline	Saxony did fight as an Austrian ally and acquitted themselves well. Bavaria was at war with Prussia but never actually fought. Of the small German states, Hanover did best, actually beating the Prussians at Langensalza. They ran out of ammo so, the next day, they surrendered. The Prussians gave them all train tickets home. Jim Cobb, Ph. D. Adjunct Faculty, Cardinal Stritch University
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#13 1 AUG 2007 at 12:08pm
Sol Invictus Centurion Posts : 967 Joined: 6 APR 2005 Location: US Status : Offline	Prussians are so considerate.[ ] "The fruit of too much liberty is slavery" Cicero
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#14 1 AUG 2007 at 8:16pm
jcfitzpatrickusa Centurion Posts : 2 Joined: 12 JAN 2007 Status : Online	1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. Germany would remain divided with Prussia dominating the North German Confederation, and Austria dominating its own Empire and the South German States.[sm=captain.gif] [sm=cop.gif][sm=king.gif][sm=medals.gif][sm=troll.gif][sm=armata_PDT_40[1].gif][font="Courier New"][/font] - J. C. Fitz-Patrick - - "The Armchair Admiral" -
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#15 1 AUG 2007 at 9:21pm
Zouave Centurion Posts : 457 Joined: 29 JAN 2006 Status : Online	The Austrian cavalry charges and counter charges were successful at covering the Austrian rear and preventing pursuit by the Prussian cavalry. The cost, however, was terrible: 64 officers, 1.984 men and 1.681 horses. The cavalry attacks were successful in containing the Prussian advance ( they held back the Prussian infantry for more than half an hour ) and allowing the retreating Austrians to reach the Elbe. "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon
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#16 2 AUG 2007 at 12:18am
Fallschirmjäger Commander Posts : 2718 Joined: 31 JUL 2005 Location: NZ Status : Offline	ORIGINAL: Bismarck Saxony did fight as an Austrian ally and acquitted themselves well. Bavaria was at war with Prussia but never actually fought. Of the small German states, Hanover did best, actually beating the Prussians at Langensalza. They ran out of ammo so, the next day, they surrendered. The Prussians gave them all train tickets home. Yes i saw this and wrote that the saxons where on austria's side,did not see about bavaria being on austria's side or missed it,and to think not long later fighting with the prussians against france.And hanover beating the might of prussia too,but then not shure but they musy had a good military,but last wars they fought in must have been the napoleonic ones like at waterloo. Fallschirmjäger
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#17 2 AUG 2007 at 10:00am
Bismarck Colonel Posts : 4434 Joined: 31 MAY 2001 Location: US, Wisconsin Status : Offline	Actually, the Prussians sent their "B" team to the West, mostly reservists and officers that didn't measure up to the usual standards. The Hanoverians were lucky (?); they happened to be on field maneuvers when the war broke out. They tried to join up with the Bavarians but the Knoedelfresser were slow and hesitant. Jim Cobb, Ph. D. Adjunct Faculty, Cardinal Stritch University
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#18 2 AUG 2007 at 6:39pm
Red Lancer Centurion Posts : 49 Joined: 2 JAN 2007 Status : Online	Just last night I was reading about the "battery of the dead". What a sad story. "One lone Austrian cavalry battery, under Captain August von der Groeben, endeavoured to stem the Prussian advance. Its first salvos were answered by such a crippling enemy fire from all sides that with the space of five minutes he was killed, together with 53 men and 68 horses." After the Napoleonic Wars, one of the officers of the Old Guard, Noisot, had erected at his own expense a bronze monument to Napoleon. He arranged to be buried standing up a few yards so that he could continue to stand guard for eternity.
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#19 2 AUG 2007 at 6:47pm
Bismarck Colonel Posts : 4434 Joined: 31 MAY 2001 Location: US, Wisconsin Status : Offline	ORIGINAL: Red Lancer Just last night I was reading about the "battery of the dead". What a sad story. "One lone Austrian cavalry battery, under Captain August von der Groeben, endeavoured to stem the Prussian advance. Its first salvos were answered by such a crippling enemy fire from all sides that with the space of five minutes he was killed, together with 53 men and 68 horses." Don't go near breechloaders with unsupported arty. Thus endeth the lesson. Jim Cobb, Ph. D. Adjunct Faculty, Cardinal Stritch University
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#20 2 AUG 2007 at 8:18pm
Zouave Centurion Posts : 457 Joined: 29 JAN 2006 Status : Online	"Battery of the Dead" [image]http://www.battlefieldanomalies.com/koniggratz/images/19battery_of_the_dead.jpg[/image] [image]http://historische-uniformen.de/Truppen/1GRzF/Batterie%20der%20Toten.jpg[/image] 1st Regiment of Prussian Foot Guards led by Captain Count Schlieffen, take the Austrian "battery of the dead" commanded by the brave Captain Groeben. Painting by Carl Rochling. [image]http://historische-uniformen.de/Truppen/1GRzF/Batterie%20der%20Toten%20B.JPG[/image] "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon
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#21 3 AUG 2007 at 1:55am
Fallschirmjäger Commander Posts : 2718 Joined: 31 JUL 2005 Location: NZ Status : Offline	ORIGINAL: Bismarck Actually, the Prussians sent their "B" team to the West, mostly reservists and officers that didn't measure up to the usual standards. The Hanoverians were lucky (?); they happened to be on field maneuvers when the war broke out. They tried to join up with the Bavarians but the Knoedelfresser were slow and hesitant. Thanks again for the info Bismarck,whats the knoedelfresser mean though?,and Zouave thanks for the pictures that 2nd one is great,like them style of paintings too they do. Fallschirmjäger
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#22 3 AUG 2007 at 7:47am
Bismarck Colonel Posts : 4434 Joined: 31 MAY 2001 Location: US, Wisconsin Status : Offline	"Kmoedelfresser" is a North German term for Bavarian - "noodle eater" but uses the less polite verb for "eat". The Bavarians hit back with "Sau[reuss" = Prussian swine. Jim Cobb, Ph. D. Adjunct Faculty, Cardinal Stritch University
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#23 3 AUG 2007 at 7:56am
Gusington General Posts : 18089 Joined: 16 AUG 2004 Location: US, USMA Status : Offline	Great paintings, and against my better judgment I have to admit loving to learn the German slang too. I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon. - Rayfer
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#24 3 AUG 2007 at 8:14am
Bismarck Colonel Posts : 4434 Joined: 31 MAY 2001 Location: US, Wisconsin Status : Offline	"Knoedel" can also mean "dumpling". Jim Cobb, Ph. D. Adjunct Faculty, Cardinal Stritch University
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#25 3 AUG 2007 at 10:13am
Daredevil81 Centurion Posts : 52 Joined: 11 FEB 2007 Status : Online	Those are some nice paintings, Zouave. Thanks.
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