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| 20 NOV 2007 at 10:29am | |
RingenCenturion![]() Posts : 7 Joined: 23 MAY 2007 Status : Online | Hi Caput,
Good distinction on Caen and with regard to the partisan issue. I hadn't fully understood the concept as a giant raid, rather than a D-Day type invasion designed to hold territory.
In a related note, I dug up an essay on San Francisco's [link=http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/wwIIbayarea/text.htm#seacoastdefense]seacoast defenses[/link]. Couldn't find anything on Portland, though--I assume there weren't any twin-16" gun mounts like San Francisco seems to have had. In any event, having visited the museum of coastal defence in Hong Kong, the Japanese had some prior experience in avoiding direct confrontations with heavy coastal artillery. |
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| 20 NOV 2007 at 1:31pm | |
ComradePColonel![]() Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline | Comrade, in this regard of the abilities of merchant vessels, it is worth remembering that worldwide, the speed of merchants was an average of 7.8 knots. (Estimate prepared for Tenth Fleet, which was responsible for the Atlantic seaboard, February, 1942).It's not the speed I was thinking about, but rather about how well they could handle long voyages, how much they could carry and whether they had a chance of surviving an attack by a submarine. I'd say it wouldn't really effect the Japanese situation in China if the armies in that area would be supplied by older vessels, keeping in mind that in this scenario there would not be any allied interdiction of that area. |
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| 21 NOV 2007 at 1:45am | |
palidianColonel![]() ![]() Posts : 3975 Joined: 28 OCT 2006 Status : Online |
ORIGINAL: Caput The obvious first question is why in the world would Japan want to invade the Pacific Northwest. Aside from natural beauty of course, a number of posters have already pointed out that the area had little to offer the Japanese from a resource or industrial standpoint. The cost of occupation is going to easily outweight any production you might see, especially when you factor in the poor local infrastructure, the unwilling populous, and the long shipping time back to the home country. I'd also say that outside of speculative fiction, its none to likely that Japan would then have the strength to march further east and conquer the rest of the US. Too large a disparity in industrial base, with the majority of US industry concentrated in the east, which is a heck of a long trip from Japan. So I think it would be safer to assume that Japanese conquest of the Pacific Northwest would be aimed either at achieving a peace settlement with favorable consessions (and sapping the US's will to fight), or perhaps as a coastal base of operations in a continuing naval war in the eastern pacific. Or finally, perhaps as a grander version of the invasion of the Aleutians. I think foreign soldiers occupying US cities would have had a galvanizing effect... in the context of WW2, this could provide the european axis powers a little breathing room, as the invasion of Europe is put on hold until after the liberation of Seattle. I think in the pre WW2 time frame, Japan would also need the help of another naval power, or at least US entanglement elsewhere. Even if you assume the Japanese achieve destruction of the entire US Pacific Fleet, they still need keep the remainer of the US Navy busy somehow. I agree with other posters, the logistics are daunting, and the sealanes between Japan and Seattle need to be completely secure, and that will be hard to accomplish if the Atlantic Fleet is still available (or the British Asiatic Fleet.. they can't be too keen on having the area adjacent to British Columbia invaded). So I think we're basically at the point of needing to invent an 2nd 1920's war to create enough turmoil that our invasion is possible. So rather than speculate an entirely new war, lets stick to the one we have, WW2. Assume the Japanese victory at Pearl Harbor is total. The battleship fleet AND the carriers are all out of action. This is quickly followed up by an invasion of Midway and Hawaii, which happens to also capture a large portion of the US submarine fleet. I think the obvious next move have been to consolidate things throughout Asia, perhaps invading Australia as well. Get that 'Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere' thing really going. But lets say the Japanese don't see it that way. They know the US is down, but not out, and they want the US totally knocked out of the pacific war. If humiliation in Hawaii wouldn't do it, perhaps bombers over Hollywood would? (G4M Betty could reach LA or Denver from Seattle/Portland). A little research on Wiki shows that Japan had a prewar merchant fleet of about 6,800,000 tons. Assume most of the fleet is needed in the Pacific moving raw materials, but 10% could be pulled to supply an invasion garrison, giving us 680,000 tons. Tokyo to Seattle is about 8000 nautical miles round trip, or about 1000 hrs @ 8kts, or about 42 days. Lets call it two months round trip, due loading/unloading and forming up convoys (while we're at it, lets assume that Japanese ASW is competent). So we can move about 340,000 tons/month. Some quick googling shows that a combat division in ww2 required anywhere from 100-600 tons/day. I think we can safely pick 200 tons/day, since after the initial invasion I think our Japanese army will be hunkered down in the favorable mountain terrain. In addition, some of the foodstuffs can be gotten locally, possibly from Japanese fishing fleets now based out of Seattle. So 6000 tons/month for a division. With that kind of consumption, the Japanese could comfortably maintain over 40 divisions, though 25 might be a more realistic number, since some supply will go towards airpower and naval replenishment. 25 still isn't too bad, given that the Japanese army strength in 1941 was about 41 division (27 of which were committed to China/Manchuria). So, I'm surprised, but I think if Japan could establish secure lines of communication, manpower limitations would be more important than logistics. But even 10 divisions would be pretty formidable against a reeling 1942 US army (26 divisions). Anyway, it's fun speculation. My calculations are all back of the envelope type stuff, if anyone sees any errors or grossly incorrect assumptions, feel free to call me on it.There is a lot of oil in California. "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear" --Thomas Jefferson
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| 21 NOV 2007 at 8:39am | |
marvingardCommander![]() Posts : 2826 Joined: 13 APR 2007 Location: 0 Status : Offline | There is a lot of oil in California.Certainly less discovered then than now... and much of it offshore, for which there was almost no technology for in 1940.. much less than 1930. The DEI will always present a more lucrative opportunity for resources than California. |
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| 22 NOV 2007 at 1:55pm | |
FarAway SoonerCommander![]() Posts : 1008 Joined: 23 OCT 2005 Status : Offline | Well, I just lost a mile-long post on the topic, but I'm a longwinded blowhard anyway, so let me try to summarize.
1) When discussing historical hypotheticals, it's important to ask "What would need to happen for this to be feasible?" Otherwise, we just argue all the reasons why and why not all day long.
2) If we assume the Japanese conduct of WW II did not change dramatically, there's no way they could have mounted anything in 1942. There are a lot of reasons for this:
* By mid-1942, the Japanese Navy--both the warships and the cargo ships--needed a rest. They had been operating at an unsustainable, even a breakneck pace for half a year. Ships can't sail 7 x 24 all year long, and much of their fleet sorely needed overhaul by mid-42. That let-down in Japanese naval abilities had something to do with their inability to push a small beachhead of Marines out of the Solomon Islands for something on the order of six months.
* We're all sorely understimating the Japanese commitment in China. The largest share of their army, as well as their logistical abilities, were aimed there. The Japanese--like everybody else in Asia--had spent the last 1,000 years worrying about Chinese imperialism. They had a lot more reason to pick a fight with China than with the US, which is what they did.
* It's worth remembering that the Allies agreed from the start that Hitler was their top priority. If their had been a real threat of a Japanese invasion of the mainland, it's much more feasible that Torch would have been postponed or cancelled, than that the Japanese would have occupied America East of the Sierra-Nevadas.
* Most of this discussion has neglected the possible role of the US Air Force. While B-17s didn't have much success bombing mobile naval targets, they had a much better track record against ships in harbor, trying to load or unload cargo. While the Japanese air force did a good job in the early days of the war, they would have been relying on carrier-based planes to provide aerial supremacy in the early weeks of the war. Given the challenges in keeping carriers on station 2,500 miles from their home ports (5,000 if they're sailing from Tokyo rather than Hawaii), this seems significant.
* The Japanese were never even able to mount a successful invasion of Australia, which presents only a fraction of the logistical challenge that an expedition against the US would have. And they would have been fighting a territory with a population and industry smaller than the state of California.
* Folks suggesting that American civilians would have taken arms against the Japanese Army and made a dent are fooling themselves. They would have been a nuisance, possibly tying up Japanese reserves to keep supply lines open, but no more. Japanese reprisals against armed resistance by American civilians would have been bone-chilling. Cities like Nanking and Manila both bear vivid testimony to the Japanese military's flagrant disregard for civilian life, and neither of those attrocities were committed under orders (not exactly). The retribution that an eventually-fully armed and industrialized America would have extracted from the Japanese simply chills my blood (our firebombings of Japanese cities weren't exactly gentle, but they would have been only the tip of the iceberg if the Japanese had perpetrated a Nanking on Seattle or Sacramento).
* As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the inter-service cooperation between the Japanese Army and Navy was horrendous throughout WW II. Too much inflexible [i]bushido [/i]bullshit to cut through on both sides. The samurai ethic was awesome for building a warrior culture, but very poor at handling the kind of interdisciplinary and logistical challenges needed for an undertaking like the invasion of the US.
* There are no forward bases between Hawaii and the West Coast. It's 2,300 miles to California from Hawaii and over 5,000 miles from the West Coast. The US had a whole range of bases well within striking distance of the Japanese mainland; the Japanese had none. (I'm not counting the Farralone Islands--the Japanese don't invade bird sanctuaries and I don't think the 30 miles shorter supply line would have made much difference! )
* One interesting possibility does raise its head though. If the Japanese had invaded and occupied a good chunk of the US (say everything West of the Sierra-Nevadas), how likely is it that a serious source of resistance might have emerged from the ranks of the American Communist party? How might that have changed the postwar political landscape in the US? The Communists were never major political players in the US, but under the right circumstances (Lenin in WW I or Tito and Mao in WW II, for example), the Communists showed themselves to have a great propensity at organizing armed resistance and political consensus.
For all these reasons, I just don't see how the Japanese could have mounted any kind of successful assault on the US at any point in the 40s. They had bigger fish to fry closer to home, and they weren't even able to take care of those.
They might have tried something, but it would have been much smaller in scope, or would have had to come at an earlier point in time (had history taken an alternate path). |
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| 22 NOV 2007 at 2:07pm | |
Centurion40General![]() ![]() Posts : 10892 Joined: 31 OCT 2003 Location: CA, Halifax Status : Offline | One interesting possibility does raise its head though. If the Japanese had invaded and occupied a good chunk of the US (say everything West of the Sierra-Nevadas), how likely is it that a serious source of resistance might have emerged from the ranks of the American Communist party? How might that have changed the postwar political landscape in the US? The Communists were never major political players in the US, but under the right circumstances (Lenin in WW I or Tito and Mao in WW II, for example), the Communists showed themselves to have a great propensity at organizing armed resistance and political consensus.Now that is interesting. Was there a sizable communist/socialist movement in Cali during the 30's & 40's? How many card-carriers would there have been? Enough to form a resistance? |
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| 23 NOV 2007 at 4:49am | |
ComradePColonel![]() Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline | * By mid-1942, the Japanese Navy--both the warships and the cargo ships--needed a rest. They had been operating at an unsustainable, even a breakneck pace for half a year. Ships can't sail 7 x 24 all year long, and much of their fleet sorely needed overhaul by mid-42. That let-down in Japanese naval abilities had something to do with their inability to push a small beachhead of Marines out of the Solomon Islands for something on the order of six months.I believe the whole starting point for this discussion was that the attack on Pearl Harbour also knocked out the carriers in the Pacific. That would've meant the US would not be able to mount any form of offensive until around late 1942. In this scenario, a "Midway" is also unlikely, and all Japanese carriers would probably still be in operation. An invasion of European colonies wouldn't be as taxing on the Japanese fleet as operations around Midway with an active enemy fleet. The main issue for the Japanese would be focus: they should not be attacking towards Madagascar, attempt to conquer China, try to invade Australia and possibly invade US territory all at the same time. In this case, the discussion has assumed that the Japanese focus on China and the western US. * Most of this discussion has neglected the possible role of the US Air Force. While B-17s didn't have much success bombing mobile naval targets, they had a much better track record against ships in harbor, trying to load or unload cargo. While the Japanese air force did a good job in the early days of the war, they would have been relying on carrier-based planes to provide aerial supremacy in the early weeks of the war. Given the challenges in keeping carriers on station 2,500 miles from their home ports (5,000 if they're sailing from Tokyo rather than Hawaii), this seems significant.How many air force bases, planes and factories were in the western US at this time? It is likely that the Japanese would also move land based aircraft to the area as soon as possible, and about 3/4 of the Japanese carrier fleet would be able to support a fairly impressive "umbrella" until the arrival of those land based planes. * The Japanese were never even able to mount a successful invasion of Australia, which presents only a fraction of the logistical challenge that an expedition against the US would have. And they would have been fighting a territory with a population and industry smaller than the state of California.That argument would be true if they tried, but they didn't. The Japanese were still busy with their own island hopping campaign to secure access to Australia. That campaign ran out of steam on New Guinea when the Japanese tried to kick the Allies out of Port Moresby. It's not entirely reasonable to assume that the logistical challenge would be less: considering that the larger cities were scattered, and that there was not enough modern infrastructure to support a large scale offensive, an invasion of Australia (don't forget that it's a country [i]and[/i] a continent for a reason: it's huge) would pose more of a logistical challenge than an invasion of a few of the larger cities on the US west coast. |
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| 24 NOV 2007 at 3:39am | |
FarAway SoonerCommander![]() Posts : 1008 Joined: 23 OCT 2005 Status : Offline | Comrade, we're all getting so hypothetical here, it's hard to argue too many specifics and prove anybody right or wrong, but let me throw out a few thoughts:
* In terms of my "ship fatigue" argument, it was really targeted at Japanese troop transports and cargo ships, moreso than the warships (although the warships had been operating at a torrid pace as well). For argument's sake, I'll grant that, if the US carriers had all been sunk at Pearl, the Japanese carrier force could be in a high state of readiness and ready to hold their stations for extended periods. Their transports, however, would not have been in the same state of readiness. What none of us here have any hard data on is "just how busy Japanese transports and cargo ships were maintaining the status quo". But I still stand by my argument that Japanese transports and cargo ships would have faced some serious challenges making the 10,000-mile round trip from Tokyo to the US West Coast.
* I think your assertion that the Japanese carrier fleet could have provided an effective "umbrella" and produced aerial superiority for any period of time is simplistic and ill-founded. To invoke shades of another poster in a similar argument about SeaLion a few weeks ago, you've tried to dismiss that with a simple "wave of a magic wand". Naval doctrine at the time and the sheer number of planes that the US had available by mid-1942 to defend the West Coast give the lie to that. The Japanese grasped the importance of land-based airpower in securing naval operations better than the Allies in the early months of the war, but the evidence was pretty overwhelming to both sides. It's simply too much easier to repair, resupply, and repopulate airfields, compared to carriers.
* For argument's sake, I'll grant that most of the Japanese carrier force could have made it to the West Coast in a high state of readiness by mid-1942. However, even if we assume no Japanese carrier casualties, the research I can find yields 6 CVs (Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Zukaku and Shokaku) and 2 CVLs (Ryujo and Zuiho) carrying a total of 561 planes as of July 1st, 1942. It seems a bit pessimistic to assume that the Japanese would sink all 6 American CVs that were in operation at the start of the war (Hornet, Yorktown, Enterprise, Saratoga, Lexington, and Wasp--the last on station in the Atlantic in 1941), but if we assume that they sank 4 of the 5 on duty in the Pacific at the outbreak of hostilities (I don't think there were more than 3 stationed at Pearl Harbor, but I'm being conservative in my argument) and the Wasp was transferred back to Pacific waters, that still leaves the US 2 CVs with 164 planes as of mid-1942. A detailed treatment of this topic can be found at [link=http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm]http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm[/link].
* According to the USAF records, by mid-1942, it looks as though the US Army Air Force (this ignores the USN and planes shipped to allies) had ~1,000 4-Engine Bombers, ~1,200 2-Engine Bombers, 600 Light Bombers, and 2,300 Fighters. You can get more specifics at everybody's most authoritative historical source, Wikipedia! [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Air_Forces]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Air_Forces[/link]. We can conservatively assume that only 3/4 of those heavy bombers would be stationed in defense of the West Coast and we can further assume that only 2/3 could reach a Japanese landing site (it's 1,100 miles "as the crow flies" from the southernmost to the northernmost tip of the US West Coast, and those planes had a full range of 2,100 miles or more). That yields about 500 heavy bombers a day, facing a Japanese carrier-based air force composed of 561 total aircraft. Even if we ignore the twin-engined bombers, and the fighter escorts, and the single engine dive-bombers, exactly how would the Japanese go about establishing an "aerial umbrella" to protect their ships as they unloaded? Without radar?
* It seems probable to me to suggest that those 2 US carriers not sunk at Pearl Harbor would not have been committed in a frontal assault to stop the Japanese at sea, but rather used to harass Japanese supply lines (~2,300 miles from Hawaii to the West Coast) once a landing happened. It seems ludicrous to suggest that 561 Japanese aircraft--with the nearest replacements 2,000 miles away in Hawaii--could have sustained aerial supremacy against several thousand ground-based US planes on the West Coast, but even if I grant that they could, who would guard the Japanese supply lines against marauding US carrier fleets? And, if the Japanese CVs and CVLs are filling American skies w/warplanes while simultaneously guarding Japanese supply lines, how will they ferry fighter planes to the newly captured airfields in the US? Transporting them via freighter takes much longer, and it seems far-fetched to suggest that the Japanese could have had fighter planes operating out of US airbases in less than a month--airbases that would have been bombed flat before the Japanese had any planes based their.
* In terms of airbases, I don't have numbers at my fingertips, but there was no shortage of them. Much of California east and west of the Sierras is flat, isolated desert and had a good number of "underused" airports that could have been easily expanded. If there's one thing Americans could do well that early in the war, it was pouring concrete. Washington and Oregon are a bit less flat than California, but still afford plenty of places to build an airstrip. I'm sure the Japanese could have bombed some of those bases, but they can only fly so many sorties a day, and it's unclear to me that they would have had much success. Just after the two, highly successful raids against Pearl Harbor, the Japanese had 10% of planes either shot down or unable to take off. They couldn't have sustained this attrition long enough to make a dent in US airbases on the West Coast. I did mention that the US would likely have had >1,000 fighters in operation by then, along with a sophisticated radar network, didn't I?
* In terms of production facilities, they were spread all over the country. B-17 production facilities were mostly on the West Coast (Long Beach, CA and and Seattle), but B-24 production facilities were coming fully online by 1941 and were headquartered across the US (mostly in Michigan and Ohio, I believe). Smaller planes were produced in more diverse locations across the country--smaller planes required smaller production facilities for final assembly and smaller runways for take-off. A lot of it was concentrated in the automative manufacturing centers in the middle of the US (again, Michigan, Ohio, etc.), but by war-end, there had been a huge explosion of airplane production in CA and many other places.
I just don't see how the Japanese could have protected their cargo ships and troop transports, much less sustained long-term aerial supremacy. The US military was a shadow of its final self in the early years of the war, but even that small shadow utterly dwarfed the Japanese capabilities to project power across the entire Pacific Ocean.
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| 25 NOV 2007 at 8:38am | |
ComradePColonel![]() Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline | Their transports, however, would not have been in the same state of readiness. What none of us here have any hard data on is "just how busy Japanese transports and cargo ships were maintaining the status quo".Every bit of data I have, mostly on casualties to submarine attacks and how effective the Japanese supply link to the troops in the Dutch East Indies was without naval or aerial supremacy points to the conclusion that the Japanese would have a difficult time without any of these conditions. However, the amount of Allied submarines in the area would be quite low (where would they be sailing from and how would they cover the Pacific from Japan to the US?) and the Japanese would only have to worry about planes. As to the argument of the "waving of a magic wand": the roles are more or less reversed now, as you're throwing thousands of planes at "my" naval force (in the argument), whilst in the discussion about Sealion I was throwing thousands of planes at the Royal Navy. One of the conclusions from that debate was simply that we can't guess/estimate accurately what all those planes would be able to do, simply because there is no historical example. In this specific scenario, inexperienced American pilots would face the veteran pilots of the Japanese carrier fleet and land based planes shipped to the US on transports. I'd say it's safe and fair to assume the US would send most of its best troops to stop the Japanese either in the Pacific or on the West Coast itself, so the Japanese would not be facing mostly veterans after the landing (the US Army didn't have many veterans in general, whilst the Japanese had been effectively at war for over 5 years at this point, with the majority of the Army veterans being in China). If the effectiveness of veteran pilots against a naval force is difficult to guess/estimate, doing the same for an attack by an inexperienced force on naval force with veteran air cover is even more difficult. For the sake of the discussion, let's say every escort carrier and similar smaller carriers are busy with the British and the Dutch and Australians in or around the Pacific. That leaves the Japanese with around 500 carrier-based planes in the area. I agree that we should limit the amount of US carrier losses to three or possibly four, as the carrier force was not located entirely on the West Coast. However: the carriers on the East Coast would have a very hard time with getting to the West Coast, as the Panama Canal is a death trap in this scenario, so they would have to sail around the South American continent (with many neutral countries in the area, which would make refueling more difficult as they can't stay in the same port for long due to international law on warships of a combatant in neutral ports). The US would be theoretically able to counter the 500 or so planes of the carrier fleet with around 4000 planes of its own, as your statistics indicate. However: the Japanese planes would all be in the same spot and could defend an area at the same time, it would be logistically impossible for the US to do the same. The effect of heavy bombers on even a moderately prepared, mostly infantry, force is negligible in any case as the Allied experiences in Italy and Normandy have shown. Heavy bombers would also be less effective against a mobile naval/carrier force (note that it's not just carriers, it's a fleet, including ships with radar, the first of which would be available in mid to late 1942). I'd have to check on how good the Japanese were at moving land based squadrons to other locations by sea in order to be able to state how effective their land-based aircraft would be. As to harassing supply lines: with the US Pacific fleet mostly sunk, and the rest of the fleet mostly on the East Coast unable to use the Panam Canal, which ships would harass the Japanese supply lines and how would they be supplied? As soon as the Japanese "close" the ports on the West Coast, the vast majority of the Pacific turns into a Japanese "lake". Note that if you're going to argument that those carriers could sail to and be based in Australia, I'll raise you my point that I left all the smaller carriers there for a reason. Together with land based aircraft, they would make US carrier operations ineffective in the area. - As a final note: After some more research, I'd still say the Japanese could conquer and occupy the Dutch East Indies with SNLF units, some units from the recently occupied parts of China and naval support (the historical setup, but with more Japanese ships in the area), although the capture of Java would possibly be seriously delayed. That is only a minor problem, as the resources and refineries the Japanese wanted were also located on other islands. |
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| 25 NOV 2007 at 2:46pm | |
marvingardCommander![]() Posts : 2826 Joined: 13 APR 2007 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Look... the objective for heavy bombers (or any ground attack aircraft for that matter) is not to sink Japanese carriers lurking off the coast. The key is to strike supply concentrations for the landing zones, ad hoc or floating workshops to service aircraft and sea vessels, motor parks, and marshalling points for ground formations. At the outset, the Japanese would have no more than 500+ aircraft of ALL types available for an invasion to cover a landing at least one beachhead. None of the ground attack element of this formation would have the range or numbers to effectively locate and suppress and perform BDA against American airpower operating from inland airfields and countless unprepared airstrips. Japanese ground forces would be faced with the 'vastness' of West Coast that could not accrue even the Wehrmacht's advantages of operating highly mobile forces across the Don Steppe. The West Coast has sparse populations centers seperated by numerous geographical barriers.
Hawaii, yes. Anchorage, why not? But the West Coast? It is beyond the realm of sanity and reality to even argue that it could have been successfully. |
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| 25 NOV 2007 at 4:55pm | |
bboyer66Colonel![]() ![]() Posts : 4709 Joined: 17 APR 2006 Location: US, Pittsburgh PA Status : Offline | Just wondering if anyone who plays Pacific War from Matrix Games has ever been able to invade the West Coast of the USA?
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| 25 NOV 2007 at 10:21pm | |
FarAway SoonerCommander![]() Posts : 1008 Joined: 23 OCT 2005 Status : Offline | Comrade, in these types of Internet discussions, and doubly so on threads where we're debating historical hypotheticals, I try very hard to give folks the benefit of the doubt. Lord knows I've been wrong in plenty of such debates, and I will be again.
But I feel as though you're more interested in arguing with me than you are in listening to what I have to say. Let me try to spell it out.
[ol][*]I don't think the Japanese would have ever stood a chance of obtaining aerial supremacy for longer than a day or two, if even for a single day. In the first 2 weeks of any landing, the Japanese would have been completely reliant on carrier-based planes (~560 of them at the start) for aerial supremacy. They had significantly better pilots and (in the single engine category) better planes. But they would have been outnumbered by at least 2-to-1 (assuming half the 4-engine bombers, and ONE-EIGHTH the one- and two-engined planes, would have been within range of a given beachead). They would have had limited (i.e., carrier-based) repair facilities and the nearest replacement planes would have been 2000 miles away (based at Honolulu). It's worth noting that, after the two attacks on Pearl Harbor in a single day--as successful an air attack as could be dreampt of--10% of the Japanese planes were either shot down or inoperable. Meanwhile, the Americans would have been feeding air units into the theater as quickly as they possibly could (which would have been slowly).
[*]The Americans would have had a profound intelligence advantage, given by three main sources:
* Shore-based radar installations
* 4-enginge search aircraft to spot the incoming fleets (PBY Catalinas had a search range in excess of 2,000 miles round trip)
* US intelligence had seriously compromised Japanese cryptography
Given these advantages, and the fact that the bulk of American aircraft could have been based inland, it seems very unlikely that the Japanese would have been able to launch any "surprise attacks" to catch a huge number of American planes on the ground.
[*]In the Sea Lion example we were discussing, the Germans could have been postulated to have aerial supremacy over the beachead due to the fact that [i]they had more planes and ground airbases within 100 kilometers of the beachead[/i]. The Japanese would have had neither of these advantages. Nor would they have been able to add enough ground-based airplanes to the fighting in the first few weeks of the war to ever gain aerial supremacy. You can't forward-deploy large numbers of aircraft to a hotly contested battlefield without temporary aerial supremacy, and it's very unclear how the Japanese might have secured that for longer than a day or two (see #1 and #2 above).
[*]I'll grant the Japanese could have established a beachhead. They had better soldiers and, with the advantage of the initiative, could have focused their inital landing somewhere where an initial landing was likely to succeed. However, once a beachhead is established, you then have to be able to marshall enough troops and supplies to break out of that beachhead before the enemy is able to concentrate sufficient forces to drive you back into the ocean. The logistical challenges here are formidable--the only reason the Allies won this "resource race" at Normandy in 1944 was because the USAF and the RAF had conducted a massive, two-month long bombing campaign on French rail roads and rail stocks. The Japanese would have had none of that advantage.
[*]As I said in the original post and as Marvin Gardens emphasized, B-17s/B-24s and B-25/B-26s would have mounted continuing attacks on the logistical areas at the Japanese beachead. This would have included bombing freighters as they were unloading supplies, bombing supply depots on shore, bombing captured port facilities (cranes, piers, etc.), bombing assembly points for the various units, etc. Bombing mobile naval targets would have been a wate of time, but heavy- and medium-bombers would have had a field day with stationary targets, just as the Luftwaffe did w/English naval targets docked in Channel ports in the opening weeks of the Battle of Britain.
In this case, the Japanese would have been stuck in a defensive, reactive role--without the advantage of forward observers or radar, the CAP demands on Japanese fighter pilots would have taken an extraordinary toll on their combat readiness, to say nothing of their ability to escort bombers on any kind of ground support missions. It's also worth noting that the Americans could have sent large numbers of fighter escorts in with the bombers.
While American casulaties would have been significant, they would have been sustainable. The Japanese supply train never would have made it out of the beachead.[*]The notion that the Japanese could have turned the entire Pacific Ocean into a "Japanese lake" is a gross oversimplification. While the Japanese could bring a decisive concentration of force into play at any one place, they lacked the forward airbases (no islands) or the advanced search aircraft to determine the whereabouts of intruding forces. The US Navy would have had challenges operating from established ports on the West Coast, but the neutralization of those ports (even if successful) would have required additional carrier operations on the part of the Japanese, which would have consumed time and aircraft pilots that the Japanese did not have.[*]The same thing goes for assaults on the Panama Canal. While tactically feasible, they would have required a dispersion of forces and an allocation of scarce resources that would likely have delayed any offensive on the US West Coast.[*]The two weakest areas in the whole Japanese conduct of the war seemed to be logistical planning, and inter-agency cooperation between the Army and Navy. Any invasion of the US West Coast would have required both of these.
[/ol]I haven't even discussed the implications of limited Japanese petroleum stocks on diverting millions of tons of shipping to the 5,000 mile one-way route from Tokyo to the West Coast, or the question of how long it would have taken the Japanese to rebuild and replenish fuel depots at Pearl Harbor after the Americans would have demolished the ones that were there.
But I've been posting a couple hours here, and honestly, at this point, I'm dubious that you're reading my arguments for anything but loopholes and things to disagree with. I apologize if I'm reading your intentions wrong here, but that's the way it has come across to me.
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 12:38am | |
marvingardCommander![]() Posts : 2826 Joined: 13 APR 2007 Location: 0 Status : Offline | Watch it, Farway, ComradeP will argue the balls off of a rhino... even Jarhead won't pick that fight. [] |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 7:08am | |
ComradePColonel![]() Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline | Sometimes, I feel very sorry that I seem to appear to be a prick, or someone who just wants to bash the person I'm debating with. I can assure you that is not the case.
I agree that I "stretch" hypotheticals a bit usually, to create what I'd call a more interesting discussion, but I do try to stick to the facts, or at least: something that could have happened.
A Japanese invasion of the entire West Coast could not have happened, unless the Japanese had half a century to prepare, so to speak. However: an invasion of a certain specific spot to show the Americans that the Japanese are only going to accept victory would be possible.
After taking a look at the map of the western US (and noting that capturing Alaska wouldn't help the Japanese), I'd say a landing on the "peninsula" west of Seattle, north of the line Olympia-Aberdeen and perhaps south of that line would be possible. In that case the Japanese fleet can also sail to the cities in the area to provide support. The goal in this case would be to occupy Seattle and its surroundings. Taking Seattle would strike a blow to the aircraft and shipping industry and as noted earlier, is fairly easy to reach for ships. Of course, the majority of the Japanese fleet would not be in the direct vicinity of Seattle all the time, but in the Pacific hugging the West Coast.
As far the air superiority argument: a lot depends on whether the US is able to move planes into the area efficiently and what they lost in the opening days of the campaign (and how/with what that has been replaced).
As soon as the Japanese enter an urban area the effect of US air superiority on the Japanese ground troops would lessen, not to mention the question of whether the US government is willing to bomb a city full of American citizens.
The main problem for the Japanese will be: how to protect their shipping from air attack, and there's no real answer to that question.
As to turning the Pacific into a Japanese lake being a simplification: correct, but my point was that the ships in the ports on the West Coast could be effectively put out of action by the Japanese fleet whilst the transports move up from Japan. As soon as those ships are gone, and as soon as the Panama Canal is blocked, the US Navy would have to sail all the way around the South America continent, which would mean the only real danger to the Japanese invasion fleet would be coming from the deep south. That was already the case, as Australia is still in place as the world's most desolate and arid aircraft carrier, which also provides bases for what remains of the Dutch fleet (probably mostly submarines) and the Australian fleet.
I also agree that the Japanese logistical planning was flawed, which is also why I proposed sending only the more modern, larger cargo ships in the area with less chances of sinking. During the invasion of the Dutch East Indies, the Japanese employed all kinds of ships...and spread the troop transports out amongst the battle fleet. That was a bad idea. I wouldn't be entirely off the mark if I would say that more Japanese troops drowned than were KIA'ed by the Allies in the area at that time. The Japanese had also underestimated the small, but capable and equipped with relatively modern aircraft, KNIL air force and supporting elements from British and Australian squadrons.
In any case, this might be the kind of discussion that will keep going in circles, it seems the average discussion about hypotheticals ends up that way. |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 10:17am | |
marvingardCommander![]() Posts : 2826 Joined: 13 APR 2007 Location: 0 Status : Offline | After taking a look at the map of the western US (and noting that capturing Alaska wouldn't help the Japanese), I'd say a landing on the "peninsula" west of Seattle, north of the line Olympia-Aberdeen and perhaps south of that line would be possible.Interesting invasion site. The northern West Coast is notorious for long breakers, steep shorelines, submerged hazards and relative remoteness. Aberdeen offers relatively good anchorage, but like many estuary environments, it has extreme tidal flow and rough waves just outside the basin. Any Japanese advance is limited to a single avenue of approach to Seattle. It could be better, though, than penetrating Puget Sound. All hypotheticals... |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 11:04am | |
ComradePColonel![]() Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline | The terrain is indeed quite bad, but the site does offer advantages such as being located in a corner of the US, without the extensive coastal defences and reserves that California had. It also helps that the Japanese could support the invasion with more or less direct fire, but still the tides and coastline are a problem.
I'm often amazed how many people forget that the landing at Normandy was made on terrain that was more or less suitable for an amphibious landing, not on coastline made up almost entirely out of cliffs, for example. There was a debate about the coastline in California in a thread about a mod for a Japanese campaign for PG2. The scenario that was eventually included was quite tricky, even with elite and seriously overstrength troops. Invading Australia was a piece of cake compared to that mission. |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 12:11pm | |
marvingardCommander![]() Posts : 2826 Joined: 13 APR 2007 Location: 0 Status : Offline | The Japanese proved themselves quite capable in '42 of making rapid advances down defended valleys with enemy flanks anchored on the heights (i.e. Cagayan Valley, Malayan Peninsular Campaign). They did this well, however, against marginally equipped and trained infantry (Indian and Filippino Regulars) and with uncontested air and naval dominance. Still, their ability to maneuver rapidly in dense terrain to outflank these entrenchments seemed unequaled... at least until they met the 1st USMC Division. U.S. regulars and national guard on the mainland are likely to demonstrate the same weaknesses as U.S. regulars and U.S.-trained proxies in the Philippines. It could be that the Japanese might do well in your proposed landing sight... for a time.
Nevertheless, while such tactical acumen might ensure localized operational successes, there is simply no place else for the Japanese Army to go once they reach Seattle. It is a strategic dead end. And once the Japanese land at Aberdeen, you can be sure that even a marginally intelligent U.S. commander would immediately fortify the approaches through Puget Sound... sowing mines, installing artillery emplacements among the many islands, etc. Capturing Seattle would be of no more use to a Japanese foothold on the West Coast than Antwerp was to the Allies without control of the Scheldt. |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 12:18pm | |
ComradePColonel![]() Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline | Seattle would be a dead end, but that's not a problem. In this case, it's all about a show of force. Defeating the US forces in the area would be enough for the political goal of showing the US that they're on the losing side and it would be better for them to quit fighting the Japanese.
Any Japanese presence along the West Coast would make it difficult if not impossible to do anything about Japan without sailing across the globe to Australia and New Zealand. It would be interesting to see what an island hopping campaign from those locations would've looked like. |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 8:10pm | |
SeawolfCommander![]() Posts : 1289 Joined: 25 JUL 2006 Status : Online | I don't think political will was so weak then. It became so only after the mass-treason movement of the 60's and the vindication of the seditious media by Walter Cronkite and others. The resistance would have been different in nature than that of China because China already had its disunity problems. The question is how the Japanese would have succeeded in the west-coast terrain. The verdict on "Free Tibet" and Kosovo:
[img]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/559/batistathumbsdown1gn3.gif[/img] |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 8:20pm | |
bboyer66Colonel![]() ![]() Posts : 4709 Joined: 17 APR 2006 Location: US, Pittsburgh PA Status : Offline |
ORIGINAL: Seawolf I don't think political will was so weak then. It became so only after the mass-treason movement of the 60's and the vindication of the seditious media by Walter Cronkite and others. The resistance would have been different in nature than that of China because China already had its disunity problems. The question is how the Japanese would have succeeded in the west-coast terrain.I love it, "Mass Treason". Another word that means the same as "the will of the people". |
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| 26 NOV 2007 at 8:23pm | |
jnierCenturion![]() ![]() Posts : 419 Joined: 29 JUN 2004 Status : Offline |
ORIGINAL: Seawolf I don't think political will was so weak then. It became so only after the mass-treason movement of the 60's and the vindication of the seditious media by Walter Cronkite and others.[X(] |
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| 27 NOV 2007 at 12:49am | |
FarAway SoonerCommander![]() Posts : 1008 Joined: 23 OCT 2005 Status : Offline | Seawolf's digression aside, I do think it's a lot more realistic to discuss whether the Japanese could have mounted any kind of effective punitive expedition against a smoewhat isolated part of West Coast, and if so, how effective it might have been.
By mid-1942, the Japanese certainly had a few more million combat veterans than the US did. By that point in the war, the only US soldiers who had seen ground combat were POWs.
I also think it would have made a lot more sense to land somewhere in either Washington state or Oregon. The "best" target in the US would have been San Diego--easy beaches, great harbor facilities, etc. I'm sure that the Americans would have realized this from the get-go.
San Francisco, while also a very appealing target, would have also been fairly well defended. Speaking as a guy who walks his dog once a week in the conrete ruins of Fort Funston's 16-inchers, it would have taken an extended campaign to get meaningful access to the Bay Area. Not so much because of a few huge naval rifles in one fort, but because the geography of the Bay does not easily lend itself to neutralization and pacification. Specifically, the Bay itself is fringed by two thin peninsulae (San Francisco is at the tip of the Southern peninsula, which runs 40-miles North-South and is girded by the Santa Cruz mountains--which are more like hills than mountains, but serviceable terrain for defenders). Each of those would have had to have been neutralized in turn, as well as the eastern coast of the Bay in Oakland.
For all those reasons, we're back to the Pacific Northwest.
I'm still doubtful that the Japanese navy could neutralize a shore-based air force of 4,000 planes, even taking them on piecemeal over the first 8 weeks of fighting, but for the sake of argument, we could assume it would happen for at least a while. The Japanese were much more seasoned fighters, and would have been able to defeat most of the established pockets of resistance within immediate striking distance of their beach-head.
They then would have been faced with the dubious proposition, "What now?" They could have put the torch to US properties in an effort to show the Americans who was boss, but I think that would have backfired. I don't know that modern America would respond the same way, but speaking to lots of folks in my parent's generation, I think they would have been PISSED at having American soil violated.
Given the code of conduct exhibited by the Japanese military dealing with civilian populations in Manila, Nanking, and other places, it seems logical to suspect that similar events would have transpired on American soil. That would have only added fuel to the fire of American conviction, I think.
We're often a short-sighted and self-absorbed people, I think, but we're also very idealistic and once our energies are truly focused on a concrete challenge, we can be relentlessly effective. What was the Bernard Lewis quote about serving with the Americans in WWII (he was a British officer)? "They were completely unteachable, and despite our warnings, they insisted on making all kinds of mistakes--many of them new and completely original. But they were also extroardinarily fast to learn and adapt. Nothing we had ever seen prepared us for that faculty of theirs."
The list of "unlikely preconditions" necessary to make it feasible for the Japanese to conduct even a limited punitive assault on the Pacific Northwest is long indeed. In the long term, even if they had satisfied all those conditions, I don't think the outcome of WW II would have been so different, with the exception of taking an extra 2-3 years and involving many more civilian casualties in Japan.
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| 27 NOV 2007 at 7:44am | |
ComradePColonel![]() Posts : 6889 Joined: 1 JUL 2006 Location: NL Status : Offline | In the long term, even if they had satisfied all those conditions, I don't think the outcome of WW II would have been so different, with the exception of taking an extra 2-3 years and involving many more civilian casualties in Japan.Question remains: how would the Allies/the US get to Japan, with most of the Pacific occupied and the West Coast ports and the Panama Canal being watched by the Japanese? As I said earlier, a scenario where the US simply sends its troops to Australia (either by using the "safer" route of East Coast - Cape of Good Hope - Australia, or by sailing around South America) is daring, but possible. If the US sets sail for Australia with even only a single construction year's worth of ships, the Japanese would face a serious problem. The question remains which ships the US would use. The Pacific fleet is either raised by the Japanese or still at the bottom of a bay or the Pacific ocean near Pearl Harbour. |
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| 27 NOV 2007 at 9:11am | |
BesilariusCommander![]() Posts : 1543 Joined: 14 NOV 2003 Status : Offline | Fantasy can be a lot of fun, but you fellers are turning Imperial Japan into a powerhouse it was not.
The First Air Fleet, Kido Butai, with all six of the heavy carriers of the IJN, could only carry about 365 aircraft that were combat ready. To do more than raid a location, it would have to find a means of replacing large quantities of aircraft. Short of a trip back to Japan, that would have meant lots of valuable transport space.
Don't talk about building land bases and airfields. To repair the expected damage on Midway (after the amphibious assault of Colonel Ichiki's detachment), the naval planners were reduced to taking american construction equipment from Wake Island. The airfield on Guadalcanal took long to develop by American standards. The Japanese felt they were being quite successful to get the ground cleared in less than a month.
In the strategic conference on the Midway operation leading to an eventual Hawaii invasion, the Naval General Staff and the Army opposed the plan put forth by Combined Fleet. The spokesman for Admiral Nagano (Cdr. Miyo, IIRC) made a telling point by demonstrating that Hawaii, like England, could not feed itself. In a month, american shippers regularly brought eighty thousand tons of foodstuffs to the islands. If Hawaii were seized, even allowing for reduction in the civilian population, somehow sixty loads of food (50-60,000 tons) must be imported to avoid mass starvation. (It wasn't that the NGS was totally against mass starvations, but where were they going to find sixty merchant ships to make the monthly trips?)
In terms of fuel for the garrison forces, Japan's industrial weakness was clearly exposed. To allocate even five modern tankers to the Hawaii run meant that there would be shortages created in the Home Islands.
Not from a lack of oil, the fields of Indonesia took care of that, but from a lack of transport.
No matter how you slice and dice it, oil was the life blood of the military, and there was no possible way for the Japanese to get refined oil across the Pacific to support an invasion. A fleet train doing a continuous loop from Japan to the Pacific Northwest would require at least twenty tankers to support the grind of constant combat. Otherwise the troops and aircraft fighting in North America would face periods of no fuel. This could work against an agricultural state like China, but was a sure recipe for failure against a self sufficient industrial state. "When I must choose an officer to perform an act that requires a good brain, everything else being equal, I choose the one with the biggest nose." - Napoleon
"If you'll believe that, you'll believe anything." - the Duke of Wellington |
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| 30 NOV 2007 at 6:49am | |
palidianColonel![]() ![]() Posts : 3975 Joined: 28 OCT 2006 Status : Online | I believe the whole starting point for this discussion was that the attack on Pearl Harbour also knocked out the carriers in the Pacific. That would've meant the US would not be able to mount any form of offensive until around late 1942. In this scenario, a "Midway" is also unlikely, and all Japanese carriers would probably still be in operation.The first Essex became operational in last 42, the next 3 were not until 2nd quarter in 43. However lets assume the three US carriers were in Pearl Harbor, on Dec 7th, why would you assume that they would take as long to repair as the battleships, the battleships were floated repaired then sailed off to there home ports and underwent major refits, the carriers more then likely would not of. Carriers do not have the complex armor and could have been battle ready much faster. "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear" --Thomas Jefferson
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