| 15 JUL 2008 at 12:17pm |
ghostryderColonel
Posts : 6936
Joined: 4 MAY 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | [font="times new roman"]I do agree that what he (Norb) is doing is morally wrong. However I disagree that the only morally correct solution would be to vaporware it. I think, if he were smart, that he would give Adam an offer of compensation in some form or another, and since he has taken this to the public forums for discussion, to then post his offer and Adam's response.[/font]
Oh I agree if he offered a deal with Adam this could save him but Lava's pointed out he's been told that numerous times and refuses.
For whatever reason the refusal only makes the vaporware choice the only real option-
and I do not think an engine build is 'years of programming' as you contend. Have you played a MM game? Not exactly high up in shader routines and physics- we're not talking here about Unreal II engines. An engine like that can be coded and tested in a relatively short time- especially when not doing so could very well ruin your whole life in the gaming buisness. In fact in terms of art and appearance I'd rather see Norb licience an engine. Even a low cost one.
But then there comes that thing again...design. Norm wants that more than lines of code.
I find that very telling in my accessment of this. Norb seems to be a driven man regardless of the reaction of his fanbase. How much of that is ego, hate, resentment or sheer evil intent can be only guessed at- but it's about the only thing I can think of that would drive someone in even with partial knowledge of the buisness to try to pull something like this off in the way he presented it.
What Norb thought about going public was he could sell this to the fanbase. He was wrong. Instead of rethinking his options he locks down forms and deletes posts and is hiding under his desk quietly hoping it will go away.
It won't.
And the more he waits the worse it'll get. It'll snowball to unstoppable heights very quick.
My advice to him at this stage? He doesn't need a lawyer, he needs the best PR guy money can buy. He's Tonya Harding Now and the public wants to know why he's breaking kneecabs.
He should be on the phone right..well two days ago...to Adam...on his knees begging a deal and a public statement. Short of that he has to vaporware the engine and apologize in the best way possible and start from scrach.
He refuses to do the latter and I think he's uncapable of doing the former. That has to be a true assesment or the man is simply stupid beyond belief or blinded by hate.
[size=2][font="times new roman"]I agree with coder that most of the discussion here is a witch hunt against Norb. Not that I really want to defend him, but I do want to see people take a step back and try to put themselves in Norb's shoes. Why should he have to throw away years and years of work in building an engine, when he could use that engine in another project? We don't know exactly how much work each person put into the project, I'm assuming there are no documents explicitly determining ownership of the assets, and in the legal sense he does seem to believe it is his property.[/font] [/size][/align][/align][link=http://www.wargamer.com/forums/javascript:void(scrollTo(0,0));][size=2][image]http://www.wargamer.com/forums/app_themes/Classic/image/totop.gif[/image][/size][/link][/align]I am putting myself in Norb's shoes. That's how I'm accessing the situation. What would I do? Well first off the legalities are meaningless. That's an arrogant approach. HAHA you never signed the papers! It's mine! ALL MINE! You can't prove a thing!
Going public? Not even on drugs.
Couldn't make a deal? I'd try. If not then the engine's vaporware- and I'd accept that. Start over. I've started over several times. Comes with the buisness.
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 12:32pm |
tc237Centurion
Posts : 273
Joined: 2 APR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Online | Originally Posted By ghostryder
[b]Timpko's purged the old forums of anything complimentary or supportive
of his former "friend and partner," Adam Bryant.
[/b]
Wow, purged may be an understatement.
I thought it was just Lava's post that was deleted but it is much worse than that.
He pretty much deleted the entire "TC2M Discussion" sub-forum.
Everything prior to this past May is gone. All the Scenario contests, welcomes to new members, etc...
That sub-forum was started even before TC2M was released, it was the heart of the MMG board.
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 12:38pm |
vbaileyCenturion
Posts : 32
Joined: 25 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | So I am thinking what peeps will publish any of these games if it be so controversy.Will they also be in cart with coder?
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 12:50pm |
*Lava*Colonel
Posts : 3567
Joined: 27 OCT 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By coder
I guess we're even because you haven't answered mine either.
How convenient. But this isn't about personalities as you so want to make it... it is about ethical behavior.
So I will answer the questions for you.
Norb refused to take down the site because he conspired to deceive his fan base, hoping to maintain the MMG fan base for his own profit. That is unethical.
As concerns the licensing agreement, it almost certainly was signed by the CEO of NSD (Norb Timpko) to the CEO of MMG (Norb Timpko). It was meant to give credence to Norb's claim that he "owned" the code, and was slipped into TC:2M (I believe) via patch, after the departure of Adam. That is unethical.
And does the code belong to Norb? Well let's just read from the [link=http://www.madminutegames.com/faqinfo.htm#company]MMG FAQ[/link]:
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="-1"]MadMinuteGames is our dream of making our own games. Some time ago two guysgot together and decided that instead of watching TV at night [b]wewere going to write our own computer game. So we've been spendingour nights and our weekends/vacations/holidays, writing what welike to call the Take Command engine and our first game "Take Command 1861- 1st Bull Run".[/b] [/size][/font][font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="-1"]Itall starts with our Designer who is a big war gamer, he had somevery innovative ideas, but where ever he tried to shop them he wastold that war games were dead. Dead, maybe? Maybe for a large publisheror development house, but maybe not too dead for a small group whojust want to have some fun. So he found the other ingredients andadded his own sound, game, and level design skills, along with hislove for history and got the ball rolling. [/size][/font]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size="-1"][b]Asfar as programming goes, the best that we could get is someone whoknew very little about games. So we bought him an inexpensive 3Dengine and locked him in a room until he could come up with somethinghalfway decent. He's not doing too bad a job, maybe we'll let himout someday. Of course we couldn't get everything, this guy hadno idea about war games.[/b] [/size][/font]
[left]Right there, in the corporate FAQ of MMG it states that this was a co-operative product.[/left]Yet, Norb maintains he did it all.
I think a better description of what happened is called theft and that to is unethical behavior.
Say what you want about Adam and what he did or did not do, but let's just be clear about the [b]facts[/b]. And the facts are Norb Timpko stole the MMG code, maintained the MMG domain to deceive the company's fan base and conspired to back door documentation to prove his ownership of the code.
I will say no more. Nothing more needs to be said.
Ray (alias Lava)
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 1:00pm |
ghostryderColonel
Posts : 6936
Joined: 4 MAY 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | ghostryder
[b]Timpko's purged the old forums of anything complimentary or supportive
of his former "friend and partner," Adam Bryant.
[/b]TC237 those aren't my statements. I posted them as qoutes from the Usenet link- I used bold font to show it was quotes-
Edit: thanks for that last post Lava- that goes a great deal in answering why Norb doesn't want to try to bargain a deal. If you were Adam why would you give him anything? It pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.
I'll only add Norb can't start over because Norb can't do the design. The FAQ even says he's clueless to how games are done. Only Adam knew that part of the buisness.
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 1:19pm |
GrellCenturion
Posts : 213
Joined: 13 APR 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By *Lava*
With all due respect...
Norb seems to believe that if the articles of incorporation did not specify that the code was jointly owned, then it is his under IT law. I believe that is incorrect. Under corporate law, the document would have to specifically state that the code produced would be exempt from joint ownership. The stuff about being a "worker" is all crap.
There is also another strange thing here. Norb from NSD, supposed licensed the War3D engine to Norb from MMG. I'm sure this was done to reinforce the impression that the code is his, but it tells you a lot about the character of the person, IMO.
But in the end, this is all crap.
The fact of the matter is, the whole "story" of how two guys in their spare time (and suffering families) put together a brilliant game turns out to be a fraud. And through that fraud Norb were able to exploit and manipulate people (including his own partner) for his own personal gain. As I said in the post which got me "blanket banned," if I had known the truth, and that truth appears to be about how one guy (from the very start) knowingly used not only his partner but volunteers to assist in helping him build a game engine for his own personal gain based on that fraudulent "deeply moving personal story", I would never have given literally hundreds of hours of personal time to help him screw his buddy.
I feel I have been betrayed. And I won't forget that.
Ray (alias Lava)
Hi Ray, I feel for you friend.
Regards,
Greg
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 1:26pm |
roman2440Commander
Posts : 1036
Joined: 12 MAR 2004
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By ghostryder
Oh I agree if he offered a deal with Adam this could save him but Lava's pointed out he's been told that numerous times and refuses.
For whatever reason the refusal only makes the vaporware choice the only real option-
Where do you see this refusal? I don't see in Lava's posts that Norb refused to offer compensation, all I see is that compensation hasn't been agreed to. The lack of an agreement on compensation does not equate to not offering it.
and I do not think an engine build is 'years of programming' as you contend. Have you played a MM game? Not exactly high up in shader routines and physics- we're not talking here about Unreal II engines. An engine like that can be coded and tested in a relatively short time- especially when not doing so could very well ruin your whole life in the gaming buisness. In fact in terms of art and appearance I'd rather see Norb licience an engine. Even a low cost one.
An engine is not simple, even without high end shader and physics routines. Yes you can build a simple engine relatively quickly. But to build a full featured engine does require a bit of investment in time, or the modification of a licensed product, or a reuse of pre-existing source code.
I have built my own engine over time, and when you are learning all of the different components that come into play, it does take years - especially if you are doing it in evenings and weekends, before you end up with something that you could market commercially as part of a game.
Maybe he doesn't want to learn how to manipulate a new game engine (they are all vastly different and take different methods to work with), and he doesn't want to go through the timesink that is to create a whole new engine from the ground up.
He should be on the phone right..well two days ago...to Adam...on his knees begging a deal and a public statement. Short of that he has to vaporware the engine and apologize in the best way possible and start from scrach.
He refuses to do the latter and I think he's uncapable of doing the former. That has to be a true assesment or the man is simply stupid beyond belief or blinded by hate.
How do you know he didn't already attempt the first part of the first option? Obviously he hasn't made a public statement about any offer to Adam, and that is a mistake on Norb's part for sure. But I doubt he took the source code and didn't at least provide some (probably inadequate in Adam's eyes) offer of compensation.
I am putting myself in Norb's shoes. That's how I'm accessing the situation. What would I do? Well first off the legalities are meaningless. That's an arrogant approach. HAHA you never signed the papers! It's mine! ALL MINE! You can't prove a thing!
Going public? Not even on drugs.
Couldn't make a deal? I'd try. If not then the engine's vaporware- and I'd accept that. Start over. I've started over several times. Comes with the buisness.
Maybe you are willing to quit on a concept and years of hard work due to a disagreement between partners, but that doesn't mean you have to - nor does it mean that Norb should. You are welcome to start over if you wish, but again you don't have to. Starting over doesn't come with the business, usually the business sets up good ground rules ahead of time, or both parties split like this with one person taking the code. Perhaps in your case you have done differently, but I assure you that is an exception rather than the rule.
You don't have to accept anything as vaporware. Property does not enter this state where noone owns it. Somebody does.
I agree its a mistake to have taken this issue public. And a bigger mistake in not being transperant once the issue is public. But those mistakes shouldn't have impact on whether or not he could use the engine in another product or not.
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 2:18pm |
ghostryderColonel
Posts : 6936
Joined: 4 MAY 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | [id=tmppasteie1216151127709][b][size=1]Where do you see this refusal? I don't see in Lava's posts that Norb refused to offer compensation, all I see is that compensation hasn't been agreed to. The lack of an agreement on compensation does not equate to not offering it. - quote from roman2440
[/size]After extensive discussions with him via email, I urged him, for the sake of all concerned, to arrive at some mutually agreeable settlement. I still urge him to do so.
My opinion is that though Norb's grievances [i]MAY[/i] have merit, these grievances are not sufficient to justify his actions. He fully understands the consequences that may accrue, yet, he cannot bring himself to negotiate a settlement. - quote from LAVA
[/b]I'm taking Lava on his word for that accesment but it's there for you to see.
[b]An engine is not simple, even without high end shader and physics routines. Yes you can build a simple engine relatively quickly. But to build a full featured engine does require a bit of investment in time, or the modification of a licensed product, or a reuse of pre-existing source code.
I have built my own engine over time, and when you are learning all of the different components that come into play, it does take years - especially if you are doing it in evenings and weekends, before you end up with something that you could market commercially as part of a game.
Maybe he doesn't want to learn how to manipulate a new game engine (they are all vastly different and take different methods to work with), and he doesn't want to go through the timesink that is to create a whole new engine from the ground up. - roman2440
[/b]I too have coded engines...in assembly. I have coded them much to the level of the engine in MM games. In spare time. Sure first time can take some time but after that? It goes pretty fast.
The argument is pointless however if you read what Lava posted in the FAQ. The engine was 'purchased'. Any additional code via .dll add-on could take a little while but not years- and the scripting language be it LUA, c-lite, c-script or whatever takes about a month to learn. Even to a newbie. Since it indicates 'purchased' and wasn't a free source code engine- which there are hundreds- means most of the hard work is done as far as hooks to windows and embedding scripts. Like even model import was in place and well as a functioning level editor. MM games are moddable but in practice that moddability is far from a slick work of art. It looks tacked on via .dlls in the the engine SDK. That feature probably was the biggest time consumer- in all this could be, assuming Norb is even half as knowledgable as myself- might add 3 to 5 months total to his restart.
If he choose to purchase another engine, and I could point him in the direction of several at under 1k, he could actually add a great deal in terms of eye candy and moddability and forgo a lot of that .dll add-on crap and save himself that time.
Again this isn't about lines of code. It's about design. That is what he's really after.
[b]How do you know he didn't already attempt the first part of the first option? Obviously he hasn't made a public statement about any offer to Adam, and that is a mistake on Norb's part for sure. But I doubt he took the source code and didn't at least provide some (probably inadequate in Adam's eyes) offer of compensation.
[/b]See my above quote. Taking Lava's post at face value I can understand Adam refusing to bargain. I can also see why Norb doesn't even want to try.
[b]Maybe you are willing to quit on a concept and years of hard work due to a disagreement between partners, but that doesn't mean you have to - nor does it mean that Norb should. You are welcome to start over if you wish, but again you don't have to. Starting over doesn't come with the business, usually the business sets up good ground rules ahead of time, or both parties split like this with one person taking the code. Perhaps in your case you have done differently, but I assure you that is an exception rather than the rule.
[/b]When ethics are involved the easy road isn't the best road. Ethics are directly tied to fanbase support. This whole thread testifies to that and this isn't even the tip of the iceberg. With that in mind doing anything short of starting over is stupid- not an exception to the rule. intelectual property isn't just a piece of paper. If Norb is half what he claims he is those concepts aren't lost. And rebuilding them in another engine should be a very feasable option. And in this case the best option.
[b]You don't have to accept anything as vaporware. Property does not enter this state where noone owns it. Somebody does.
[/b]
If it's not clear you own in the public eye you do or your quickly be toast. Seeing Lava has made a very good case it's not sole property of Norb's, and forwhater reason they can't agree- it has to be vaporware. He needs more than a Judge. He needs buyers. He won't get them like this.
[b]I agree its a mistake to have taken this issue public. And a bigger mistake in not being transperant once the issue is public. But those mistakes shouldn't have impact on whether or not he could use the engine in another product or not.
[/b]But they do. He shot himself in the foot by going public and this is his options. What he does is going to determine if he can survive at all at this point in the game. And his downfall will be quick. I don't even think he has days to decide. The longer he waits and the more this spreads the surer his doom.
If your a coder and a game designer you KNOW what's gonna happen when this hits the dev forums. Do not underestimate that. I've seen it countless times and it ain't pretty.
That is what amazes me about this. Norb has had to have been a part of the that as well and has seen it happen to others. It is why I find his actions so damn bazaar.
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 3:10pm |
LOEFIECenturion
Posts : 365
Joined: 13 MAY 2004
Status : Online | .
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 4:28pm |
roman2440Commander
Posts : 1036
Joined: 12 MAR 2004
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I did re-read the original post by Norb made in 2006.
One point, he definately formed an S-corp with Adam. He filed the paperwork himself in 2004 for this.
Two - Lava stated that Norb is using a licensing agreement to utilized the engine in NSD with an approved licensing from MMG (both parties are the same person, just acting as officers in two different companies).
Going off those 2 assumptions being correct, then it does definately sound very fishy. I'm not an expert in corporate law, but I do believe that a corporate officer (whether ceo or not) does not have the right to give away corporate assets, or to sell them in a fradulant manner.
If he personally owns the source code, then he as a corporate officer does not have the right to license it out (the company can license the final product, but not the source code itself). If the company owns the source code, then it depends on the law behind his actions. The corporate by-laws would be the first place to look to see if he violated any duties as spelled out there (these do exist and would have been created when he incorporated) - but beyond that you'd have to look to see if his actions as a corporate officer in the sale of the license constituted fraud.
Assuming the facts in reality are the same as we are seeing here, there is good ground for Adam to get a lawyer and sue Norb for compensation for 1/2 of the assets of MMG. This would force a fair market assessment of the engine, as well as the other assets, and Adam would be entitled to half (assuming they both have 1/2 ownership of the s-corp); although he could not force the assets to not be used, he at least would get fair compensation for his work in the eyes of the law.
This is a private issue and should be addressed behind closed doors with lawyers on both sides. That seems to me the only way for both parties to walk away from this with the correct assets, especially considering the amount of information lacking in this case.
If indeed Norb is this evil beast every is making him out to be, then why doesn't Adam get a lawyer and deal with this in the proper arena?
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 4:43pm |
ghostryderColonel
Posts : 6936
Joined: 4 MAY 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | Good post roman2440. I'm not too good on legal matters but will take your word.
I could only speculate why Adam hasn't taken action. For one he's ill and another perhaps he's waiting for the first release?
Or it could be costs. Or his illness has got him to the point of not caring.
But the community cares and is watching.
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 4:51pm |
LOEFIECenturion
Posts : 365
Joined: 13 MAY 2004
Status : Online | .
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 10:51pm |
ivanmoeCenturion
Posts : 37
Joined: 24 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By vbailey
So I am thinking what peeps will publish any of these games if it be so controversy.Will they also be in cart with coder?
I guess that's the $64,000 question, which is to ask whether or not anyone will publish a game that's facing a copyright challenge?
That said, coder is cash starved:
http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?postid=204416#post204416
And sources inside "the team" indicate that his terms of agreement with his "vendors" stipulate that their compensation is contingent upon the new game being published.
Oh my. :-/
There are two kinds of wargamers, those who talk about the hobby, and those who play.
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| 15 JUL 2008 at 11:57pm |
coderCenturion
Posts : 32
Joined: 16 JUL 2006
Status : Online | I have never posted this much to a board, but this is a very interesting thread.
There is a lot of talk about what he did, but not why he did it. I still say that there is a lot of stuff behind the scenes that we don't know. I also want to know why the designer would not write the first scenario to his game. This was the one thing that would be evaluated for their first public showing, but instead his programmer had to write it. I think that speaks volumes about how dependable Adam was. I know that if I finally realized my dream and designed my first game, then I certainly would be writing the coming out scenario.
I also would want to know what steps (if any) Norb took to try to resolve or reach an agreement with Adam. What steps did Adam take to try to fix/resolve any issues that Norb had with him? Norb states in his post that it was like pulling teeth trying to get Adam to write anything down, so what was done to fix this before the split?
I'm not sure what world you program in ghost, but any designer that's worth anything, can write some sort of spec. Even if it's just a list of things you want addressed, but it's not the programmers job to be the designers secretary. Certainly not when it's a 50/50 split. With all of the other things he was doing, I'm surprised that Norb had any time to code. If Norb just needed ideas, he could have just read these boards. There are tons of ideas floating around.
Also, it states on the new site that he rewrote the engine and is even using a different version of the graphics engine. So it looks like he did write his own engine. If that's the case, then he's just maintaining that the source does not belong to madmin.
He did not go public with this. It was an old post on an unrelated board found by someone years after it was written. I don't consider that going public. He's actually been pretty quiet about the entire thing. But since this thread is dedicated to destroying someone based on a lot of assumptions, then I can play that game as well.
My assumption is that Norb tried to make Adam a designer and agreed to write Adam's game because they had been good friends for many years. Probably had discussed making games together for a long time. Since it says that they had been fighting for years, it looks like Norb acted the gentleman and allowed the misconception that Adam was the design brains to grow. Since it helped the company and it was possible that Adam would get the hint, he never publicly spoke against the guy. I have to assume that someone else on the team knows the problems that Norb had with Adam, but since they like Adam they don't want to show any support or write anything that might shed light on this thing. I been the ball is rolling now, why try to stop it? So for years he puts up with this and does right by the company and gives Adam his share. It's all there if you read it. Just look at the Why NSD thread on his site. It's to reward all the people that work on the game, not just two people. So my guess is that a lot of people were covering for Adam in his duties, it seems that Norb certainly was, and Norb got fed up. I guess there must have been some final thing that put him over the edge in 10/2006 when he wrote that post.
At that point, based on what Lava has written, Adam wanted to shut down the company and abandon the community, but Norb kept it running. Seems that Norb has more loyalty to the game than Adam. This goes to show that Norb could not let it go, but Adam could. Proves to me more that Norb had more invested in the game than Adam.
Now Norb rewrites the engine, just so there are no legal difficulties, and adds multiplayer. Seems that he doesn't need Adam at all to write the game. Can he do it by himself? No, he's got people that are working with him. But he has decided to give everyone a share that is giving to the game. So maybe he tried to do the same thing with Adam, but Adam refused to give up any of his share. So the only option left was to leave Adam.
Now if Adam is as awesome as everyone is making him out to be. Where is his new team? Why does Norb have a team dedicated to working with him, but Adam only has a bunch of attack dogs? If he's such a bad guy, why are people willing to still work with him? Some of those people have worked with Norb for years. So if he was such a prick, why are they there?
The evidence points to the fact that Norb did not need Adam at all. He can make a game with anyone. He just wants people to get a fair share for what they contribute.
Your passion is in protecting a guy who got a chance to realize his dreams of making games, but blew it. Now he's moping, no one will work with him, and he's crying to enough people to do the only thing left. Try to destroy the one person that gave him the chance that no one else did. He has to play the victim, because he doesn't have anything else. If he actually had any talent, he would have been able to attract a new team and make a new game. Why don't all of you do the guy a favor and make a game with him? I believe that Brett posted that they started a project together that didn't finish. Seems that without Norb, there is no game. But without Adam, no problem.
I don't know about you, but the evidence clearly shows who people are willing to work with and who they aren't. Maybe Adam should have spent these past years working on a new game like Norb did, then he wouldn't be so bitter. I think he's just pissed at himself for blowing this one chance he got, and is looking for someone to blame, because blaming himself is just too hard.
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 5:38am |
ChelcoCenturion
Posts : 761
Joined: 14 APR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline |
coder,
You know a lot about a lot. Tiny details, like who made the maps, how was this and that.
Are you Norb?
In one of your earlier posts, when you say:
I also respect him for putting his own dreams of creating a fantasygame aside and instead recreating Sid's Gettysburg for his friend Adam.
I cannot avoid to wonder why Norb is "recreating Sid's Gettysburg" yet again. This time is for himself?
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 7:21am |
blisterCenturion
Posts : 10
Joined: 16 JUL 2008
Status : Online | Amen, coder.
This is just too rich.
I've never heard such vitriolic blather from a crowd who want so desperately to believe in evil sorcerers and ogers.
I'm probably older than all of you combined and have managed dozens of people in multiple organizations as well as worked on the line elbow to elbow with other slobs. Neither of the people your trying to theorize about are ogers or saints. They are family men who are trying to make their way and do the best.....and, yes, moral thing to do.
Is Adam a nice guy? Yes.
Are nice guys sometimes lazy? Yes.
Do nice guys somethimes inadvertantly or not take advantage of others by not doing their job? You bet they do.
Do people get brought in to clean up after them at no pay. Yup.
Do people get pissed at the fact that a lot of people do most of that persons job and don't get any of the reward? Yes, cause its immoral.
And some people are too nice to embarrass former coworkers.
Lets get another couple of facts streight here.
1. Norb did ALL the work on the Engine.
2. An army of lawyers says he owns it.
It seems convienient that everyone seems to forget Norbs unparrelled generosity.....you can't do that when trying to construct a monster.
Well, listen up Swift Boaters:
1. Have you ever heard of a game developer who would deign to answer anywhere near as many questions as Norb..... being helpful, pointing people on the right path. Adam could do this.
2. Norb wanted to open up the maps for everyone. Adam didn't.
3. Norb has kept the MMG board going for everyone.......even when they slander him without knowing any of the facts. Adam could be involved if he wanted to. Some people are selfish, some try to help out.
4. Norb is doing his best to make sure the new game is easier and mod-friendlier for people.
Is Adam sick? Yup.
Is that a terrible thing? Yup.
Do terrible things happen? Yes, children, indeed they do. I've even seen my supervisor get his brains bashed out (literally) in front of me.
If you were starting a company on a wing and a prayer; hoping to add to your families income, would you get the best people you could?....or would you get nice guys with lousy work ethics?
Remember, no one is cutting Adam off at the knees here. He's still collecting money largely on other peoples work.
One more thing, that all too sadly seems to need mentioning among the paranoic:
Am I Norb? Nope, but I do happen to know him and he's a decent, moral guy who's trying to make the best of things. Just like most of us.
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 7:22am |
NorbCenturion
Posts : 1
Joined: 2 JUN 2007
Location: 0
Status : Offline | NORB!
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 8:38am |
ivanmoeCenturion
Posts : 37
Joined: 24 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Norb
NORB!
Norb, why did you lock the following thread at MMG?
http://www.madminutegames.com/MadMinuteBB/viewtopic.php?t=9046
There are two kinds of wargamers, those who talk about the hobby, and those who play.
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 8:51am |
sieksterCenturion
Posts : 614
Joined: 27 JUN 2006
Status : Online | This thread is almost as good as a Shakesperean play.... plot twists and all.
As to whether it ends as a comedy or tragedy remains to be seen....
"Fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing."
-Optimus Prime
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 8:55am |
ivanmoeCenturion
Posts : 37
Joined: 24 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By ivanmoe
Originally Posted By Norb
NORB!
Norb, why did you lock the following thread at MMG?
http://www.madminutegames.com/MadMinuteBB/viewtopic.php?t=9046
Oh, now look, a helpful member of the staff has conveniently directed the poster to another part of the forum.
Do you have any idea how small that stuff like this makes you look?
There are two kinds of wargamers, those who talk about the hobby, and those who play.
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 9:20am |
ChelcoCenturion
Posts : 761
Joined: 14 APR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | One more thing, that all too sadly seems to need mentioning among the paranoic:
Am I Norb? Nope, ...
So you are not Norb. Is coder actually Norb? Is Norb of the previous post the Norb in question?
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 9:34am |
roman2440Commander
Posts : 1036
Joined: 12 MAR 2004
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Guys can we stop with the personal attacks on Norb and Adam, please?
This issue doesn't matter who did more, or who deserves what - all that matters is that the two parties cannot agree, other than to agree that they don't need to work together anymore. Once that happens, either one side needs to give in, or you reach a comprimise, or you have to look to the legal arena to see what may come of things. Sounds like the former in this case (with Adam giving in).
It doesn't matter what I think, or you think - all that matters are the facts of the case, and this is strictly a personal matter between Norb, Adam, and their respective lawyers. We will never here all of the details of what transpired, no matter how close we are to Adam or Norb. Only a mediator would potentially here everything, and then they'd have the task of trying to seperate fiction from truth. But none of that matters except to the extent that it applies to the law at this point.
As for the anger over what happened, I don't see either of the parties directly involved being particularly angry about what happened. All I see is community members getting offended at a perceived slight to Adam - but I don't see posts or quotes from Adam about what is going on. Not a slight to the community, but rather a perceived personal injury between two people.
We are all adults here, Adam can defend himself and can speak for himself, if he wishes to. Granted that given the facts we have seen so far, theres a good chance Adam is chapped at what is going on. That said, I find it highly likely that Adam knows more of the details about what actually happened between the two of them, and he probably knows his options and has already made his choice on what to do, and isn't as angry as this community is. And even if he is angry, his actions in the public eye (as far as I have seen) do not reflect that anger.
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 9:41am |
ivanmoeCenturion
Posts : 37
Joined: 24 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Chelco
One more thing, that all too sadly seems to need mentioning among the paranoic:
Am I Norb? Nope, ...
So you are not Norb. Is coder actually Norb? Is Norb of the previous post the Norb in question?
Nah, blister isn't coder from the message that was deleted.
Edit: Dang, someone took a picture, and I forgot to insert the link:
[link=http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=norbqv6.jpg]http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=norbqv6.jpg[/link]
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9132/norbqv6.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=236&i=norbqv6.jpg][IMG]http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9132/norbqv6.588f2877ca.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
There are two kinds of wargamers, those who talk about the hobby, and those who play.
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| 16 JUL 2008 at 10:59am |
ChelcoCenturion
Posts : 761
Joined: 14 APR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline |
Un-freaking-believable!
I am speechless.
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