| 18 AUG 2009 at 12:26pm |
bssybeepCenturion
Posts : 185
Joined: 22 MAY 2005
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rayfer
It's sad that our beloved hobby has come to this....nearly every post about a new release game in wargamer.com turns into a DRM discussion with little said about the game itself. I'm not bashing the DRM bashers, I understand their concerns and right to express them. It's just that so little is ever said about the games themselves anymore, just DRM or how bad the game will suck because of the publisher/developers past history.
Problem is, the DRM is part of the game. Unfortunately, it's one complete package. No game is good enough to have to deal with DRM.
As developers of PC games head more into the DRM camp, I find myself redirecting my gaming dollars to Console titles. There are a lot of great games available for the PS3 and DS (my consoles of choice). So those DRM users are just killing themselves with lost sales.
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 12:46pm |
IronXCenturion
Posts : 967
Joined: 25 JUN 2011
Location: CA, British Columbia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rayfer
These issues trouble me as well and they need to be expressed. It's just that there is so little positive game talk any more. Are newgames really that bad? Just for example, take a look at the new thread for the announcement of Silent Hunter 5.....nothing but bashing, that the game will suck, most threads are like that now. There is this pall of negativity that permeates almost every post anymore. Nobody is happy with anything gaming unless it is 15 year old dos game that nostaglia tells them was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's lke nothing new is any good and everything old is the hoy grail. I know I'm exaggerating to make a point but it's not far off the truth. Is anyone having fun playing war games anymore? From these forums it would seem not.
I totally agree. The posts on this forum over the past several months have become increasingly negative. To be fair, some highly anticipated games have been pretty disappointing upon release, but the extent some posters have gone to make their point is sad and the overall tone of debate lately is bound to discourage people from visiting the site. There are some threads that are encouraging, such as the top five games on your HD, which demonstrates people are actually playing games. I assume they're having fun. I know I am.
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 1:44pm |
LlyranorCenturion
Posts : 58
Joined: 27 MAR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I'm most likely buying this, pending on how much I'll enjoy the demo. The multiplayer especially appeals to me (co-op, using aides de camp to communicate between players).
I'm not a fan of DRM, but I'll tolerate it if the pros of the game itself outweigh the cons of the DRM. I've had some experience with the eLicense with the Combat Mission games and didn't really have an issue with it. It won't have an affect on whether I'll be purchasing the game or not (the demo will be the deciding factor).
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 5:18pm |
honestabeCenturion
Posts : 948
Joined: 2 MAY 2008
Status : Online | @Llyranor it's not that elicense is invading you it's the fact that if Battlefront goes bellyup and the attitude of "some" developers and Admins over there decide to hell with their customers then you lose. Your elicense will fail and the DRM will kickin as soon as the site goes down and you want to reinstall it more than 2 times. There will be no one to phone home to. Nobody to reset your license. It's not so much the now's it's the tomorrows that matter to me when buying a game.
Let's take an example of SSI and Microprose. What if they had these licenses and DRM's back in the 80's? Well I wouldn't be playing all those wonderful wargames from SSI anymore nor Master of Magic or Civilizations. They sold out to EA, perhaps EA decides not to honor those licenses or DRM agreements and makes up new ones and charges you $5 to upgrade?
Now it's easy to say [from the publisher and developer] Oh if we are going out of business we'll unlock all these licenses and cancel all these DRM's. But, how much faith can you put into a company that might "sell out", "go bankrupt" or even "die" as Gygax recently? You have no guarantee that they will live up to their word. And how many lies have you caught them in so far in their history? I've never seen so much lying hype about new games coming out and then the game is a bust on release day. Take a look at HOI III threads over at Paradox for just one example.
I personally want to own what I buy. Even leasing a car you get the option to buy it after so many months. This software and most especially the gaming portion of PC gaming is getting a bit rediculous in all the things they require and want for you to get their games. I don't know of anything else so preposterous like buying a lot of pc games now and all the bs you have to go through to get it and get it to work both now and in the future.
It's like that old saying: They are biting the hand that feeds them.
A.I. production-it's more like, Okay, the games about ready--lets stick some A.I. in- you have 3 weeks.
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 5:27pm |
LlyranorCenturion
Posts : 58
Joined: 27 MAR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Offline | I totally understand your perspective. It's just that I'm more interested in the game than I am disinterested by the DRM.
Sure, there are many other great games to play, but it's not everyday you get what seems like a pretty neat wargame with online co-op. I'm a huge co-op fan. Until we get the luxury of more wargames with that feature, this sounds like a real winner.
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 5:49pm |
pirimeisterCenturion
Posts : 110
Joined: 9 AUG 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By IronX
Originally Posted By Rayfer
These issues trouble me as well and they need to be expressed. It's just that there is so little positive game talk any more. Are newgames really that bad? Just for example, take a look at the new thread for the announcement of Silent Hunter 5.....nothing but bashing, that the game will suck, most threads are like that now. There is this pall of negativity that permeates almost every post anymore. Nobody is happy with anything gaming unless it is 15 year old dos game that nostaglia tells them was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's lke nothing new is any good and everything old is the hoy grail. I know I'm exaggerating to make a point but it's not far off the truth. Is anyone having fun playing war games anymore? From these forums it would seem not.
I totally agree. The posts on this forum over the past several months have become increasingly negative. To be fair, some highly anticipated games have been pretty disappointing upon release, but the extent some posters have gone to make their point is sad and the overall tone of debate lately is bound to discourage people from visiting the site. There are some threads that are encouraging, such as the top five games on your HD, which demonstrates people are actually playing games. I assume they're having fun. I know I am.
Sorry for the long quote, but I totally agree with Rayfer and Iron X. There's too much negativity when talking about new games in mots of the threads here. And most of it is just "clean-cut hating" of said games. Not trying to pick a fight, just expressing a feeling. Without hijacking this thread, let me just point you guys to [link=http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2009/08/11/three-moves-ahead-episode-25-world-war-ii/]Three Moves Ahead's podcast[/link], where, depite the shortcomings present in HoI 3, they are still capable of enjoying the game (and explaining what is there to enjoy). Now, I know that where dealing with subjective opinions here, but my point is, it's perfectly possible to complain about the mistakes in HoI 3 (the "not so accurate" map) and still say you're having great fun with it. Ditto for the rest of the new releases.
And I understand that DRM is an extremly important issue nowdays (I lost a DVD recorder for StarForce and have my copy of LOMAC: Flamming Cliffs blocked because I exceded the number of activations due to having to re-install Windows XP...), but we get so caught up in it that we seem to have missed that JMM has posted on this thread... And instead of asking him questions about the game, we're discussing DRM issues (and don't get me wrong - I totally agree eLicense is rubish).
Just my €.02. Again, not trying to pick a fight or hijack this thread - just expressing an opinion.
Cheers!
JERRY:"Vomitting is not a deal breaker. If Hitler had vomitted on Chamberlain,Chamberlain still would have given him Czechoslovakia".
GEORGE:"Chamberlain... You could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe"
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 8:53pm |
Keester KlownCenturion
Posts : 848
Joined: 27 AUG 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By pirimeister
: Flamming Cliffs blocked because I exceded the number of activations due to having to re-install Windows XP...), but we get so caught up in it that we seem to have missed that JMM has posted on this thread... And instead of asking him questions about the game, we're discussing DRM issues (and don't get me wrong - I totally agree eLicense is rubish).
And rightly so. Nothing JMM is going to say matters if the game is saddled with an unacceptable DRM scheme. It matters not if he creates the best game ever...if his publisher is going to cripple it, AFAIC it was all a wasted effort on his part.
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 8:53pm |
Keester KlownCenturion
Posts : 848
Joined: 27 AUG 2004
Status : Online | Deleted duplicate post.
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| 18 AUG 2009 at 9:31pm |
honestabeCenturion
Posts : 948
Joined: 2 MAY 2008
Status : Online | Don't forget that's all Battlefront games to come in the future as well. We'll see how many gung ho's we have against DRM when "CMX2-Normandy" is released. {g}
What we must do is go for alternatives that will replace the want of these DRM unfriendly games. We've all played 3D real time battles of various eras by now and they are all pretty much the same. For me I'm going to go for Slitherines "Fields of Glory" for the PC. Plus get a 25% off coopon on another title later on. So, let's all go support Slitherine and preorder "Fields of Glory" or "Field of Glory" however it's spelt.
A.I. production-it's more like, Okay, the games about ready--lets stick some A.I. in- you have 3 weeks.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 7:37am |
AP514Centurion
Posts : 56
Joined: 27 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | [b]Here is a replay to the DRM from...Battlefront[/b]
Moon wrote : eLicense is the "copy protection" that we use. Akthough the term "copy protection" is actually misleading, in fact even incorrect, in that it does not prevent you from copying at all. What it does instead is protect the game from being hacked, so as to be distributed without our consent.
eLicense does one thing only - it enforces our End User License Agreement that Battlefront has in place ever since it was founded. That EULA allows paying customers to install and run the game on up to two PCs at the same time.
In order to do this, eLicense installs a program called runservice.exe in your Windows directory. That program doesn't really do anything while the game is running. What it is needed for is to launch the eLicense activation when you first start the game. This is needed so that you can enter your license key and activate your game. It is also needed to launch the eLicense window when you want to UNLICENSE a game. eLicense is a so-called "mobile license", and by Unlicensing you can "free up" your license key to be used on another PC.
You can do this as often as you want, there are no restrictions whatsoever, so you can have the game on your desktop and laptop, unlicense on your laptop and activate on your new laptop and so forth. The only restriction eLicense enforces is that no more than two copies can be running at the same time (in order to run a third and fourth, you need another license key).
Whatever concern the posters on Wargamer have, they are unfounded and usually based on misconceptions of how other DRM systems work. elicense works differently and is the most user friendly and least restrictive system out of the whole bunch that we have tested (and we have tested MANY!).
I'm happy to answer any questions you may have regarding eLicense. We are now using this since mid-2006 and have never looked back.
The 2 activations you can have at the same time with each key allow you to do 2 player with the same copy, or to have the game on your home PC and work PC (ahem... [image]http://www.wargamer.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif[/image]) or on desktop and laptop etc. Since it's a mobile license, you can transfer a game from PC to PC quickly - it's a one-click process to unlicense and one-click process to re-license. (You do not even have to uninstall) In fact, we have customers who travel a lot and do exactly this and move their "license" around all the time.
Another important aspect of eLicense is that it's not calling home or doing anything behind your back. eLicense is only "running" when you launch for the first time and the only internet connection required is for that very first activation. All subsequent plays do not require eLicense at all, you won't notice it.
Lastly, eLicense allows our games to be CD-independent. No CD is required in drive to play.
Ah, there are many other advantages over other DRM systems. There isn't a single downside, and the only people trying to put up scarecrows about it in reality have agendas of their own.
AP514
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 7:52am |
Twitter3Centurion
Posts : 261
Joined: 15 APR 2009
Status : Offline | Thanks AP514. I feel better after reading your post. I can assure you I have NO agendas what so ever with this topic. I am a simple wargamer who loves putting my $ behind well conceived and challenging to play games. I'll admit that this is one of the games I have been following for a while and was bummed to hear about this elicense at first. Hopefully you have been honest with us and can be taken at your word. If you info is correct and the reviews are decent then I'm backing the game.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 7:56am |
AP514Centurion
Posts : 56
Joined: 27 JUN 2006
Status : Offline |
I just pulled The Quotes straight from the histwar forums....Not sure if it phones home every time you load the game but it looks like NO... it might do it the very first time you load/install the game.
AP514
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 8:35am |
LongBladeGeneral
Posts : 20586
Joined: 2 MAY 2003
Status : Offline | Does anyone have any idea how the DRM scheme works if the hard drive crashes?
I personally am not petrified of DRM schemes (though StarForce was pure malware IMO and SecuROM isn't far behind) even knowing a game has bad DRM won't be a killing decision to buy it - by itself.
However, I have experienced many instances where a hard drive has melted down without warning, forcing me to buy new hardware and reinstall games. Is there some kind of "unregister all" function similar to Apple's iTunes?
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 8:42am |
destraexGlobal Moderator
Posts : 6189
Joined: 8 MAY 2001
Location: AT, 3D
Status : Offline | i have had a hdd crash.... u just give them your name and addy and they get your key back for you. then they de-activate your license so you can re-activate.
i had not played the game so long that i had lost the key and gone through one crash and one windows re-load since last installing it.
Its only recently that i have made the effort to play cmsf properly..... its mainly because my laptop handles it well... so its my game of choice when i'm on that platform
Medieval Real Time, Mount and Blade style Historical Combat.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 9:09am |
son_of_montfortColonel
Posts : 8163
Joined: 6 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Yeah LB, destraex is on spot here. It's usually a pretty painless process to get that key back. I know some users had issues with the OOTP series, but he contracts out the download and license service to a third party (his company is pretty small) and so it was sometimes a lack of communication between developers tech service and download service tech service (FWIW, Matrix has has the SAME type of problems between customers and Digital River, even with their copy protection system). AFAIK, most people even got these issues settled, either the OOTP developer went to bat for them or he issued them another key/download.
Pretty painless, actually. But, again, some will not like any intrusion at all.
SoM
Son_of_Montfort  "Slander is a poison which extinguishes charity, both in the slanderer and in the persons who listen to it." Bernard of Clairvaux
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 9:26am |
LongBladeGeneral
Posts : 20586
Joined: 2 MAY 2003
Status : Offline | Cool.
That's been my biggest pain (HDD loss) and so from my perspective the most likely issue that I think gamers might face. I didn't think it would be a big deal and it turns out it isn't. But it's worth asking
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 1:52pm |
MarkShotCommander
Posts : 2935
Joined: 3 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Just looking at the games on my hard drive, if it was to crash and I had to reinstall with Elicense DRM, then how would I reach/activate games from the following?
Avalon Hill
Microprose
Sierra/Dynamix
PopTop
Maxis
SSI
There in lies the problem with Elicense. And for those of you who say, but they will unlock the games upon their demise, dream on. I have watched enough tech businesses fail from the inside to know that a final gracious gesture to customers is not the most central thing on anyone's mind. Further as long as IP is an asset and there are owners, investors, and creditors such a gracious act might even be subject to legal action. Losing your job and your investment is bad, but being sued is even worse.
Disclaimer: Battlefront may well prove to be the exception to the rule. But for those who believe that there games will be unlocked for them in the general case, historical precedents would seem to dictate that this is self delusional wishful thinking.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 2:18pm |
son_of_montfortColonel
Posts : 8163
Joined: 6 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Well Mark, technically speaking you could contact Digital River (or whatever the DL and licensing company is) and they would be the ones in charge of the license software (not the game software). They are pretty faceless, but I think that this method can work, provided you have some proof of purchase.
But, to ask the same question - what would you do if the CD broke, floppy got corrupted, you lost the documentation and couldn't find the copy protection "crack" online, for those games listed? What if you lost those wonderful disks that shipped with Starflight, or the map and square tool that shipped with Starflight 2? You used to be able to request replacement floppy disks or CDs from Sierra, Avalon Hill and Microprose, but not anymore. Sure sure, Abandon-ware sites exist, but lets remove those from the picture to complete the analogy.
It is pretty much the same situation. Wear and Tear is just as much a problem with dead companies as DRM is for modern ones. People always use the "what happens when the company fails" argument, but never realize that that argument also applies to the method of install (floppy, CD, DVD), the lack of updating to make compatible with new OS (Vista, perhaps Windows 7, or whatever is next), and still applies to physical based copy protection (what if I lose the Matrix serial code, copy protection disk, map, booklet, manual, etc). So really, DRM is just one piece in this puzzle.
SoM
Son_of_Montfort "Slander is a poison which extinguishes charity, both in the slanderer and in the persons who listen to it." Bernard of Clairvaux
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 2:57pm |
MarkShotCommander
Posts : 2935
Joined: 3 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | It comes down to in part as to whether I am taking good care of my property or not. As it turns out, I do a better job taking care of my property than many of these companies are viable. So, I prefer to be server free.
That argument I raise is used, precisely since it is a valid one with concrete examples as I have provided.
Finally, the obsolete hardware/software in years to come has been largely nullified by things like DOSBOX. There is no reason that my digital property must be condemned to death simply due to the fact that its developer/publisher no longer supports it or has ceased operation. And yes, I believe these games are my property as opposed to simply a usage privilege which was extended to me by the developer/publisher at the time of sale.
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 3:57pm |
son_of_montfortColonel
Posts : 8163
Joined: 6 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Well, there could, one day, be a DosBox equivalent to deal with today's DRM. But I was a kid when the games above were released, so you'll forgive me if the copy protection, floppy disks, or CDs didn't survive my youth! [] Further, my laptop doesn't even HAVE a floppy drive of any sort, and they are harder and harder to come by these days. So I reiterate my point - when it comes to talking about closing companies and the future of your games, you can't predict it.
I understand you can take care of your property, but what about "acts of god." We mention hard disk failure but what about flood (Louisville, KY recently got one of the worst flash floods in recent history), fire, theft? If any of those happened to your copies, you will still be out of luck in reinstalling some old games, just like if Battlefront went out and you couldn't reinstall CM:SF.
Anyway, it's an academic debate and I see your point. I don't like eLiscense, but its better than most. The key to me is how does this effect my gameplay at present and near future - rather than speculation on farther in the future and access to the game (I surmise that people will crack it just like they cracked things with DosBox).
And let's be honest, how many recent games have the playability and replayability of 1830, Master of Magic, Might and Magic, Master of Orion 2, and the like? [sm=00000436.gif]
Son_of_Montfort "Slander is a poison which extinguishes charity, both in the slanderer and in the persons who listen to it." Bernard of Clairvaux
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| 20 AUG 2009 at 4:05pm |
honestabeCenturion
Posts : 948
Joined: 2 MAY 2008
Status : Online | I agree with you Mark, plus I would rather not have to call anyone when I want to install a game I bought. Today we not only have intrusive copy protection schemes to deal with we also have DRM which makes it twice as bad as before. We have intrusive copy protection programs like Starforce and Securom one of which loves to eat CDrom drives and the other that is like a virus and you have to have a special program to remove it. It slows down the performance of your system the more programs you have that require it. Soon another one comes named GOO from Stardock who once was the standard "against" copy protection schemes and now have appeared to join them.
Then DRM restrictions with the number of installs you can have on this machine or that machine which is annoying as hell when you reach the end of them. If I own 10 computers in my one household I should be able to put that program on all 10 computers. I will never sway from that belief. I could do this with any of the games I bought before well before DRM started.
All this boils down to is greed on the developers and publishers part. They would like it even more if you had to buy a game for "each computer you owned". I think some even tried that a few years ago.
Plus the difference in SoM's analogy is farfetched and rare, the reality of businesses going out of business on a whim isn't especially in this day and time.
I take good care of my products. I make backups of the ones I can and I have games over 25 years old that still work. Plus DosBox has taken control of DOS games being able to be played on PC's today.
So, it still comes down to DRM and intrusive copy protection that we as consumers have to deal with. To get rid of it you have to speak with your wallet just like we did against Starforce issues.
As long as you support something and it's profitable for the company they certainly aren't going to change their 'habits'. Look how long they have been getting away with these rediculous beta releases and calling them finished products!
The other thing is with money being so tight these days I feel publsihers and/or developers should be looking for ways to apease customers not drive them away.
A.I. production-it's more like, Okay, the games about ready--lets stick some A.I. in- you have 3 weeks.
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| 21 AUG 2009 at 2:48am |
destraexGlobal Moderator
Posts : 6189
Joined: 8 MAY 2001
Location: AT, 3D
Status : Offline | I still cannot get over how bad the horse models look... but i have said that since the early screenshots.
i suppose it must be the way they are running. They look ok in some shots and then like cardboard cutouts in another.
They are missing their rib cages!
Medieval Real Time, Mount and Blade style Historical Combat.
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| 22 AUG 2009 at 5:19pm |
rossntuCommander
Posts : 1271
Joined: 24 DEC 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | The one thing I would add to the discussion regarding DRM and companies going out of business is this: there are, as Markshot, pointed out, loads of games that would be useless if they had had the same system. However, would you prefer it if that were the case to not have played these games? Surely the £30 investment is worth it for the time spent enjoying the game? I'm not saying that it makes it right, but I guess I'm in the "'tis better to have loved and lost than never loved at all" camp.
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| 22 AUG 2009 at 6:07pm |
AndyBrownCenturion
Posts : 73
Joined: 27 NOV 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By son_of_montfort
Sure sure, Abandon-ware sites exist, but lets remove those from the picture to complete the analogy.
Sorry, it is precisely because Abandonware sites exist that your analogy is not valid.
In ten years time, what chance will there be of me finding a working copy of some outdated and long-forgotten BF title (say CM:SF or ToW2)?
(Noting that GoG only seems to work for GOOD old games!)
Cheers,
Andy Brown
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