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Topic: Kiss USAF Air Superiority Good By

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All Forums : [THE MILITARY ACADEMY] : Militaria, Military Hardware & Tech Specs > Kiss USAF Air Superiority Good By

#1 19 SEP 2009 at 6:32pm
GDS Starfury General Posts : 16394 Joined: 26 MAY 2001 Location: 0, Starbase 10 Status : Offline	USAF adds IRST pod for F-15s By Stephen Trimble The US Air Force has revealed plans to purchase and integrate 100 infrared search and track (IRST) pods for its Boeing F-15C/D fleet, the latest addition to a $3 billion portfolio of upgrades since 2000 for the dwindling Eagle fleet. Lockheed Martin will supply Boeing with an upgraded version of the ANS-42 IRST pod that originally flew on the US Navy's Grumman F-14D Tomcat, and was selected more recently for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. Unlike the F/A-18's IRST pod, which is mounted at the front of a fuel tank, the F-15 version will feature a sleeker pod design mounted on its "Station 5" stores pylon, says Brad Jones, Boeing's F-15 radar modernisation programme manager. A similar pod has already been supplied for South Korea's F-15K fleet. Although mounted on the aircraft's belly, the long-range sensor will have the ability to look up by 5°, Jones says. As a passive sensor, the IRST pod will augment the F-15C/D fleet's mechanically and electronically scanned radars to search for enemy aircraft and missiles at very long range, he adds. The selection provides a glimpse into the possible future for the USAF's core fleet of F-15C/Ds and F-15E Strike Eagles. The USAF plans to retire about 170 C/D model aircraft in 2010, reducing its non-stealthy air superiority fighter fleet from about 400 to 230 fighters. This is expected to be further reduced to a core of 176. These so-called "Golden Eagles" may be in line for further upgrades, including active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars and digital electronic warfare suites. Congress has already inserted money to upgrade mechanical radars for 16 USAF F-15C/Ds with Raytheon's APG-63(V)3 AESA. Meanwhile, the air force is also upgrading all 224 F-15Es with the company's APG-82(V)1, which matches the antenna from the APG-63(V)3 with the more advanced back-end processor from Raytheon's APG-79. The latter is already operational on the USN's F/A-18E/F and EA-18G Growler fleets. The APG-82(V)1 system is actually cheaper to buy than the previous-generation APG-63(V)3, says Jones, perhaps making it a logical choice should the USAF decide to upgrade all 176 Golden Eagles to the AESA standard. Likewise, it also may consider upgrading all its F-15Es with the ISRT pod, he says. Separately, Jones says Boeing is "close to reaching agreements" with foreign industry as risk-sharing partners on the company's stealthy F-15 Silent Eagle. This converts conformal fuel tanks into internal weapons bays and adds a digital electronic warfare system. The risk-sharing deals are expected to coincide with an order for Silent Eagles by the host government. [link=http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...for-f-15s.html][color=#2b547e][link=http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...for-f-15s.html]http://www.flightglobal...rticles...for-f-15s.html[/link][/color][/link] while this all sounds great the fact that we are going to be reducing our F-15 fleet to a mere 176 frikin air frames is sheer stupidity! reduced purchases of F-22 are tolerable when we have 400+ F-15s but now it seems we are going to really cut into the bone.
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#2 19 SEP 2009 at 6:57pm
mhowe Centurion Posts : 191 Joined: 9 AUG 2006 Status : Online	What about the joint strike fighter in its air superiority configuration? Can't it fill in the gaps created by downsizing the F-15 and F-22 programs? Genuine question, not rhetorical.
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#3 19 SEP 2009 at 7:55pm
GDS Starfury General Posts : 16394 Joined: 26 MAY 2001 Location: 0, Starbase 10 Status : Offline	IMHO the F-35 does not have anything like the air to air ability of the F-15 let alone the F-22. its a great plane but I think its just a bit to general purpose to really excel at killing other planes.
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#4 24 SEP 2009 at 6:42pm
DennisS Commander Posts : 1295 Joined: 12 FEB 2004 Location: US Status : Offline	When was the last time the USAF was involved in air to air combat? What makes you all convinced that this will happen in the next 10-15 years? Why the HELL do you purchase F-15's, when the basic technology is 38 years old?
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#5 25 SEP 2009 at 1:41pm
ActionJack Colonel Posts : 7881 Joined: 19 SEP 2005 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By DennisS* When was the last time the USAF was involved in air to air combat? What makes you all convinced that this will happen in the next 10-15 years? Why the HELL do you purchase F-15's, when the basic technology is 38 years old? From what I've heard from Marine fighter pilots, the Chinese threat has already surpassed our air supremacy capability save for the F-22. Since U.S. military success has been predicated on at least gaining air superiority if not outright supremacy, surrendering this capability leaves our foreign policy less robust and makes a return of air to air combat a greater probability. "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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#6 26 SEP 2009 at 9:03pm
VTBrigade Centurion Posts : 67 Joined: 8 FEB 2008 Location: 0 Status : Online	A quick check on the data shows that the Chinese AF has about 300 front line fighter & fighter/bombers, largely SU-27 variants. That is about the equivalent of 6 carrier air wings even if the USAF stays out of it entirely. Over the longer run, it is highly likely that Predator types & descendants will be used in an anti-air role should the need arise. A few Predators loaded out with AIM-9's loitering around enemy airbases could make takeoffs a real adventure.
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#7 26 SEP 2009 at 10:00pm
Staggerwing Colonel Posts : 3317 Joined: 4 AUG 2007 Status : Offline	There's the rub. Once the Great Powers start fielding hard-core UCAVs that can thrust-vector like UFOs and kill wetware-based aircraft at BVR using hand-off targeting Said Powers will be the Kings and Queens of Air and Darkness (irrelevant Poul Anderson reference...) until the moment comes when a nuclear pariah state with boosters capable of reaching low earth orbit figures out what EMP stands for... At that point the US and Allied pilots who chased brown A-4s over Nevada will be worth more than all of the miles of fractured silicon inside our latest and greatest F-22s, Super Hornets, Rafaels, and Gripens. As long as we have some old-school airframes left for them to fly... Wit Ye further, or how...? -Voluspa (Poetic Eddas)
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#8 27 SEP 2009 at 6:00am
ActionJack Colonel Posts : 7881 Joined: 19 SEP 2005 Status : Offline	Understand that current unmanned capability is actually piloted by a human thousands of miles away. I don't believe such a pilot can have the situational awareness to be a real threat to the Chinese air force nor to any manned enemy fighter craft. "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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#9 27 SEP 2009 at 8:37am
Schwerpunkt Commander Posts : 1295 Joined: 29 JUN 2009 Status : Online	[image]http://www.ausairpower.net/f22a-vs-f111.gif[/image] "Forty years after a battle it is easy for a non-combatant to reason about how it ought to have been fought. It is another thing personally and under fire to direct the fighting while involved in the obscuring smoke of it." -Herman Melville
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#10 27 SEP 2009 at 8:47am
Mikeck Commander Posts : 1389 Joined: 28 DEC 2008 Status : Offline	The Chinese are no match for our air combat capabilities for two main reasons: 1. Both the F-15 and the SU-27/Mig 39/31 are generation 4 fighters. F-18 Superhorned is generation 4.5) The f-15- although equivalent in flight perfomance- is FAR superior in avionics and radar. When you factor in the TRAINING of the US pilots vs. Chinese fighter pilots, you have the makings of a slaughter. Its one thing to filed alot of aircraft, but its another to field highly trained pilots. The Chinese have no real history of air combat to draw lessons and experience from and lack detailed combat training like "Red Flag" 2. If you ain't stealth, you ain't crap. 'nuff said. Both the F-22 and the F-35 are stealthier than the F-117. I don't care how maeuverable you are, how many missles you carry or how fast you fly, if I can see you but you can't see me...it doesn't matter. Our aircraft combat capabilities are light years ahead of others in stealth and fire control/avionics. Addiitonally, our pilots are the best trained in the world. Plenty of Iraqis were shot down in Deseet Storm flying top-of-the-line Mig 29s because they had no air control capabilities (like the Chinese) and no real training (like the chinese). It just seems to be fashionable to declare the relinquishment of US power. "love is preserved by link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails."
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#11 27 SEP 2009 at 9:15am
ActionJack Colonel Posts : 7881 Joined: 19 SEP 2005 Status : Offline	Both the F-15 and the SU-27/Mig 39/31 are generation 4 fighters. (F-18 Superhorned is generation 4.5) I think the point of the thread is that ending production of the F-22 gives away that next generation advantage towards air supremacy. I've not heard the F-35 is a suitable replacement for the F-22 mission. As for the SuperHornet, my understanding is that the weapon mounts cause excessive drag and inhibits increased performance over the Hornet. I don't fly but that's my understanding from those that do. "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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#12 27 SEP 2009 at 12:31pm
GDS Starfury General Posts : 16394 Joined: 26 MAY 2001 Location: 0, Starbase 10 Status : Offline	I think everyone missed the point that the F-15 fleet is going to be reduced to 170 airframes. thats the real issue here. I dont care how good the training and plane are when you only have 170 of them. for a country with global responsibilities like the US that number is simply to low.
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#13 27 SEP 2009 at 1:08pm
marvingard Commander Posts : 2826 Joined: 13 APR 2007 Location: 0 Status : Offline	Threat deflation is a bitch...
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#14 29 SEP 2009 at 4:23pm
Eyebiter Commander Posts : 1231 Joined: 28 DEC 2004 Status : Offline	The land based F-35 variants (500-600 miles) have half the combat radius of the F-15 Eagle (1,000 miles). Figure in any future conflict with China our tanker fleet supporting the JSF would be vulnerable to Chinese interceptors. Buy your share of freedom... today!
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#15 29 SEP 2009 at 5:52pm
GDS Starfury General Posts : 16394 Joined: 26 MAY 2001 Location: 0, Starbase 10 Status : Offline	with so few airframes to use we would have to have F-22s guarding the tankers instead of clearing Chinese airspace. going back to the 6 naval air wing equivelancy... thats roughly half of our carrier strength which on paper is pretty damned impressive. however roughly half of our carriers are in port undergoing repairs and upgrades at any one time while the other half are on patrol all over the world. so in this scenerio were we have 6 carriers off of China, 4 in port and the rest either in port or covering the rest of the worlds oceans. not a good deal at all.
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#16 29 SEP 2009 at 6:48pm
OJsDad Commander Posts : 1440 Joined: 5 AUG 2004 Location: US, Ohio Status : Offline	How will the proposed B-1R model change the air superiority discussion. It's my understanding that the proposed B-1R can carry a realative large number of AIM-120D missiles. Matthew 25:14-30. Jesus tells that it is not sufficient merely to maintain things as they are. Those who await should make good use of the gifts that God has provided them.
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#17 19 NOV 2009 at 9:09am
ActionJack Colonel Posts : 7881 Joined: 19 SEP 2005 Status : Offline	Chinese stealth? [link=http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3ac1b7659b-259c-4bc6-8a50-0bd230e66b8c&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest]http://www.aviationweek...p;plckElementId=blogDest[/link] "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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#18 19 NOV 2009 at 12:35pm
zmantle Centurion Posts : 83 Joined: 30 JUL 2008 Status : Online	I know this is a silly question as I ask it but does anyone know what a war between China and the US would look like? How much would Air to Air combat factor into a conflict when both sides have ICBMs?
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#19 19 NOV 2009 at 1:12pm
ActionJack Colonel Posts : 7881 Joined: 19 SEP 2005 Status : Offline	How much would Air to Air combat factor into a conflict when both sides have ICBMs? If we had parity in ICBM's air-air combat would figure quite a bit. As it is, since we don't need to resort to ICBMs, combat air power would figure the same. "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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#20 19 NOV 2009 at 1:57pm
gdpsnake Centurion Posts : 30 Joined: 15 APR 2006 Status : Offline	Stealth is crap. It boggles my mind everytime I hear people talk about stealth technology and how the capability makes the platform so deadly. Stealth tech is designed to defeat a band of radar wavelengths but can't defeat the whole spectrum. Typically low band radars can paint stealth platforms just fine. Also, stealth does not ablate all the heat generated. An F-22 super cruising at high speeds shows up like the midday sun on an infrared scope. There isn't much stealth in the microwave band either. The Russians laughed as we produced stealth bombers at 5 billion a copy (when you factor in maintenance and ops support per plane) and they built seeker heads for their air-to-air missles that incorporated microwave/IR/radar tracking at $100,000 a pop. Oh, did I mention you can see it too? The mark 1 eyeball still works pretty good which is why the USAF is KING of the nighttime. Sure, they have made it more difficult but at what cost? Proponents point at the "Stinkbug's" (Stealth fighter) esert Storm record yet 85% of all precision munitions in the war were dropped by F-111's (none were lost and were flying when everyone else was grounded). The price tag is enormous and the AF had to can many of it's other airframes (The F-111 included) just to buy a lot fewer F-22s than they wanted. And do we really need the capability in today's low budget terroist threat?? I vote no. A new basic F-15 replacement follow-on type which is easier to maintain, more reliable and boasts better radars and armament is the way to go. Stealth just isn't worth the cost. Oh, and we were saying this would be the case in our briefs to leadership years ago. I remember authoring a paper saying Iran would be the next big threat in 15 years (this was 15 years ago). I also remember being ordered to 'invent' threats to justify the purchase of F-22's to Congress. And people wonder how politicos can ignore or twist intel to fit their needs...... Do I have credibility? I'm a retired AF pilot, I lived this stuff for years and I spent a few years as Chief, Advanced Aerospace technologies for AF Intelligence at the Pentagon. I studied this stuff ad nauseum and was responsible for evaluating all the latest tech for 'their' countries and ours and briefing the Joint Chiefs of Staff, DOD leadership and others. How I got stuck in Intelligence for a few years is still a mystery but I eventually got back in the cockpit. Just my thoughts...... snake
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#21 19 NOV 2009 at 2:07pm
purplehelmetedwarrior Centurion Posts : 329 Joined: 21 OCT 2009 Status : Online	Finally, someone on this board that has some real world, balls- to-the wall, experience in the AF. Stealth is unequivocally an over-rated cash wasteland because of the politics and contracts (lined pockets) associated with it's production. Bravo gdpsnake. Go Falcons!! It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman. -Grim Jack
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#22 19 NOV 2009 at 2:54pm
zmantle Centurion Posts : 83 Joined: 30 JUL 2008 Status : Online	*Originally Posted By ActionJack* How much would Air to Air combat factor into a conflict when both sides have ICBMs? If we had parity in ICBM's air-air combat would figure quite a bit. As it is, since we don't need to resort to ICBMs, combat air power would figure the same. That was kind of misleading on my part. I was talking about conventional missiles. I would think that there wouldn't be a whole lot left of either country by the time the alpha strike was over but I don't know a whole lot about modern equipment.
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#23 20 NOV 2009 at 7:28am
ActionJack Colonel Posts : 7881 Joined: 19 SEP 2005 Status : Offline	Stealth is crap. I've talked to F-18 pilots who have concerns about Chinese capability without stealth. Does Chinese development and fielding of stealth aircraft pose any challenge to the current U.S. capability? "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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#24 20 NOV 2009 at 7:59am
bboyer66 Colonel Posts : 4709 Joined: 17 APR 2006 Location: US, Pittsburgh PA Status : Offline	Thanks gdpsnake for telling how it is. Like I have said before we are doing something wrong when we spend as much as the rest of the world combined on defense, while having an 11 trillion dollar deficit. There has to be a cheaper way to do things. Pittsburgh Eats
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#25 20 NOV 2009 at 9:04am
GDS Starfury General Posts : 16394 Joined: 26 MAY 2001 Location: 0, Starbase 10 Status : Offline	I would still rather have 6th and 7th generation stuff when the rest of the world has 4.5 and 5th gen stuff. I understand that the threat just isnt out there but I dont want to plan for today. I want to plan for 15 years from now. Im also considering all the fields that get advances from work like this. the system information intergration alone with F-22 is worth its weight in platinum. also stealth isnt the thing that makes the F-22 so wicked. its the electronics and the supercruise engines and the way its manufactured and the weapons intergration. its the combination of all of these things that make it a world beater, not simply stealth. I also know its a vast oversimplification to think that the Soviets simply put on new seeker heads that could pick up B-2s.
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Topic: Kiss USAF Air Superiority Good By

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