| 24 NOV 2009 at 7:01am |
rockhopperCenturion
Posts : 4
Joined: 23 MAR 2008
Status : Online | Terry Brooks: I do like him, however I do realize he is indeed a complete Tolkien rip-off. In a way, I am OK with that. I consider his Shannara works as "comfort food." Familiar fantasy archetypes and themes, you know just what you're going to get, nothing groundbreaking sure. It might seem strange, but to me a good story will often trump originality.
Robert Jordan: agree with many of the above. I really, really want to like the WoT, but I just keep getting bogged down and lose interest after the first 7 or 8. I've started and restarted that series so many times... Each time I will start from the very beginning, but I never have the desire to continue. Thus I've read Book 1 about 6 times, Book 2 5 times, Book 3 4 times, etc...
David Eddings: one of my absolute favorites. Great settings, believable characters complete with flaws, political intrigue, everything.
RA Salvatore: I have always enjoyed the Dark Elf series, but some of the themes tend to drag on a bit longer than I'd like. I got tired of the feud between Drizzt and Artemis Entreri after awhile. OK, I get it, Artemis is a mirror image of Drizzt, blah blah...
Stephen King: I know, Stephen King?!? The Dark Tower series was brilliant. Not sure how much more original you can get than that.
Dragonlance: I love all the Weis and Hickman books. I also enjoy any other books that stay away from the Heroes of the Lance (for instance, the Elven Nations trilogy was good). The prequels just puzzle me... In the beginning of the Chronicles we are introduced to the Heroes. We know they are adventurers, but that's it. They have backgrounds, but they don't seem "epic" yet. The Chronicle is their epic. Then the prequels were released one by one, detailing the histories of the Heroes. All of a sudden we see that they've had epic adventures before. The prequels sorta diminish the epic greatness of the story in Chronicles.
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| 24 NOV 2009 at 7:34am |
maddmattCenturion
Posts : 3
Joined: 13 JAN 2009
Status : Online | Surprised I did not see Michael Moorecock listed...The Elric books alone are fantastic, not to mention the eternal champion series.
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| 24 NOV 2009 at 8:17am |
bayonetbrantColonel
Posts : 7052
Joined: 18 MAR 2007
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By maddmatt
Surprised I did not see Michael Moorecock listed...The Elric books alone are fantastic, not to mention the eternal champion series.
Post 19 at the end of page 1
Originally Posted By stophro
Moorcock's Elric books are dark and a little disturbing, but well worth the read. I just wish I had a chance to read some of the other Eternal Champion books. I have never come across any of the others in a book store or used shop.
Check out GrogNews for wargaming / mil news.
http://grognews.blogspot.com
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| 24 NOV 2009 at 10:03am |
SteveskiCenturion
Posts : 360
Joined: 16 MAR 2008
Status : Offline | I guess my favorite would be Raymond E. Feist. I find his books tremendously readable and engaging.
RA Salvatore is excellent.
Despite what others may say I am enjoying Terry Goodkind's works and am currently about book 6 - Faith of the Fallen. I find the TV series "Legend of the Seeker" horrible though.
Robert Jordan (WoT) reminds me of an MMORPG grind fest. The boredom is simply too much and I find his writing style to be less readable than the others mentioned above.
We have nothing to fear but beer itself.
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| 24 NOV 2009 at 10:19am |
JP FalconCenturion
Posts : 802
Joined: 29 MAY 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Steveski
I guess my favorite would be Raymond E. Feist. I find his books tremendously readable and engaging.
RA Salvatore is excellent.
Despite what others may say I am enjoying Terry Goodkind's works and am currently about book 6 - Faith of the Fallen. I find the TV series "Legend of the Seeker" horrible though.
Robert Jordan (WoT) reminds me of an MMORPG grind fest. The boredom is simply too much and I find his writing style to be less readable than the others mentioned above.
When I was fed up with reading Winter's Heart ( Book 9) back when it was first published, I wrote a review on AMAZON, part of which read...
"...the lack of decisive action and the continuing layering of sub plots and mini quests to the point they resemble an RPG video game storyline,...."
Nice to see I was not alone in my thinking..... But I am giving it another go, since there now is a finishing line....
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| 24 NOV 2009 at 12:47pm |
airboy45Centurion
Posts : 780
Joined: 12 NOV 2009
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By John_in_VA
Tolkien is always much-vaunted for how detailed and complete his world is, but one thing that always does stand out is the complete absence of religion and sex (and hence, romance). After you get past the grand sweep depicted, at some point you start wondering what everyone is fighting about.
This is one of the reasons I like S M Stirling so much. Religion and sex plays a very important part in his writing. Eric Flint in his 1632 series also considers both topics.
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| 24 NOV 2009 at 5:36pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | John_in_VA
Tolkien is always much-vaunted for how detailed and complete his world is, but one thing that always does stand out is the complete absence of religion and sex (and hence, romance). After you get past the grand sweep depicted, at some point you start wondering what everyone is fighting about.
This is one of the reasons I like S M Stirling so much. Religion and sex plays a very important part in his writing. Eric Flint in his 1632 series also considers both topics.
______________________________--
These reasons are how come hard core, blood-letting, stand for something or fall for anything Robert E. Howard's pulp fiction works have literary merit. His worlds and characters are not well-defined gloabally, but they are chiseled in granite within the mind of his protagonists. His protagonists mirror the limited 'assumption-based'/'evidence-void' frame of referrence most real-world people operate in. Howard wrote from his gut and leaves his readers for dead. Great literature is like-- reading a good book thows one headfirst into meaningful adventure and when it is over one is left for dead. Howard always held religion and romance upon the tip of his sword or close to a six-gun muzzle flash. Belit and love lost... Howard's work is great literary commentary, near-Steam Punk, and Pulp Fiction. During the Great Depression it made food for thought, entertainment, food parcel wrappers, insulation, fire starter, toilet paper, and in our age it still serves all these USEFUL functions. Howard's characters never saw G_d yet they knew Him and they knew great mirth, life & death adventure, undying loyalty, bitter treason, and LOVE... Great reading ! emoniacs, E.T. aliens & space travel, socercerers, necromancers, corrupt politicans & military, mercenaries, and even black robed & tall turbaned whirling Dervishers, Amazons, and impalaccable enemies unafraid of death because death was portal to paradise and virgin orgy ! Where's my library !
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 7 DEC 2009 at 2:28pm |
ZaraathCenturion
Posts : 14
Joined: 21 JUN 2009
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Middle Earth had a religion, it's just that most of the races (Elves, Dwarves, (good) Men and Hobbits) all shared the same religion, the veneration of the Valar and (indirectly) Eru. The Orcs and corrupted Men served Morgoth (once the greatest of the Valar) and later Melkor/ Sauron, a Maia. Since they ruled in person in Middle Earth, it was more of a tyrant-underling arrangement than a religion.
I used to like The Worm Euroboros as a wee lad; although it has been decades since I reread it, I still own my copy.
One author no one has mentioned is Tim Powers. He writes very dark historical-themed fiction with some fantasy elements.
I rarely read fiction these days however, except for older (Victorian-Edwardian) horror stories. When I cleared out a deceased relatives home, his collection of Eric Flint books were one of the few that I discarded, maybe I should have kept those.
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| 9 DEC 2009 at 8:55pm |
JP FalconCenturion
Posts : 802
Joined: 29 MAY 2005
Status : Online | For the few Jordan readers here, I just finished Book 11 and it was a most satisfying read....He does toss off the numbers of troops that are involved in battles rather casually, as some of his battles involve hundreds of thousands of combatants, but they are written rather small scale, so I never felt the weight of the numbers that he was trying to portray...despite that, there were many plot lines tied up and I'm actually looking forward to starting Book 12 and see if the influence of the new writer shows through.....
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| 9 DEC 2009 at 9:51pm |
MartokColonel
Posts : 4019
Joined: 4 JUN 2005
Location: US, Minnesota
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP Falcon
For the few Jordan readers here, I just finished Book 11 and it was a most satisfying read....He does toss off the numbers of troops that are involved in battles rather casually, as some of his battles involve hundreds of thousands of combatants, but they are written rather small scale, so I never felt the weight of the numbers that he was trying to portray...despite that, there were many plot lines tied up
I'm glad you enjoyed it, JP; good to know I'm not the only one! Matt, Perrin, Elaine, and even Loyale all get to tie up quite a few loose ends. And the scene where Nyneave sets Lan down at World's End and then "prepares the way" for him....I honestly got goose bumps just reading that part. It has made me eager -- for the first time in a long time -- to read the next book(s).
Originally Posted By JP Falcon
and I'm actually looking forward to starting Book 12 and see if the influence of the new writer shows through.....
I swear I'm going to wait and hold off reading the last three volumes by Sanderson till they're done, even if it kills me (and it very well might)! I just don't think I can bear to go back to the series until I know for certain that it's truly, finally complete.
So here's hoping I can hold out for another 3 years, I guess....
"I happen to believe that both parties deserve a good scouring with a metal brush and sent to their room without reelection" - Steelgrave
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 5:16am |
JP FalconCenturion
Posts : 802
Joined: 29 MAY 2005
Status : Online | Actually Martok, I was wondering if Nyneave was using "Compulsion" to get the people eager to join so quickly?
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 7:21am |
Shudson66Centurion
Posts : 82
Joined: 28 JUN 2005
Location: US, NE
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Martok
Originally Posted By JP Falcon
For the few Jordan readers here, I just finished Book 11 and it was a most satisfying read....He does toss off the numbers of troops that are involved in battles rather casually, as some of his battles involve hundreds of thousands of combatants, but they are written rather small scale, so I never felt the weight of the numbers that he was trying to portray...despite that, there were many plot lines tied up
I'm glad you enjoyed it, JP; good to know I'm not the only one! Matt, Perrin, Elaine, and even Loyale all get to tie up quite a few loose ends. And the scene where Nyneave sets Lan down at World's End and then "prepares the way" for him....I honestly got goose bumps just reading that part. It has made me eager -- for the first time in a long time -- to read the next book(s).
Originally Posted By JP Falcon
and I'm actually looking forward to starting Book 12 and see if the influence of the new writer shows through.....
I swear I'm going to wait and hold off reading the last three volumes by Sanderson till they're done, even if it kills me (and it very well might)! I just don't think I can bear to go back to the series until I know for certain that it's truly, finally complete.
So here's hoping I can hold out for another 3 years, I guess....
SAY SPOILER ALERT GEESSHHHHHH!
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 8:28am |
JP FalconCenturion
Posts : 802
Joined: 29 MAY 2005
Status : Online | Sorry man, but we are talking about a book that has been out for a few years now (Book 11) so I think there should be some type of expiration date for worrying about spoilers...
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 12:42pm |
MartokColonel
Posts : 4019
Joined: 4 JUN 2005
Location: US, Minnesota
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JP Falcon
Actually Martok, I was wondering if Nyneave was using "Compulsion" to get the people eager to join so quickly?
Honestly, I don't think so. Don't forget that the Mandragoran name carries enormous weight & influence across the entire Borderland. All she really had to do was tell people the last king of Malkier is marching to Tarwin's Gap; the rest would simply be a row of falling dominoes.
"I happen to believe that both parties deserve a good scouring with a metal brush and sent to their room without reelection" - Steelgrave
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 1:55pm |
Pak40Centurion
Posts : 640
Joined: 8 JAN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By John_in_VA
Tolkien is always much-vaunted for how detailed and complete his world is, but one thing that always does stand out is the complete absence of religion and sex (and hence, romance).
I have to disagree. The Silmarillion is almost the bible of Middle Earth. And even though LoTR and the Hobbit are lacking in romance, you can hardly criticize Tolkien for not trying to insert some sappy romance into an epic where it had no business being. One of the things I hated about Peter Jackson's LoTR movies is this conjured romance between Arwen and Aragorn. It never happened durning the novel. Jackson must have wasted 30 minutes telling this romance that had nothing to do with the plot. Precious film time could have been better spent on actual plot detail shots or the Old Forest with Tom Bombadil and the wights.
The only thing that I liked about the Arwen/Aragorn romance in the movies is how they paralleled it to the Tale of Beren and Tinuviel. i.e., immortal in love with a mortal.
Anyway, that brings me to the second reason why I disagree with your statement that there is a complete absence of romance. The story of Beren and Luthien(Tinuviel) is a romance worthy of a Shakespearian tragedy. It's in the Book of Lost Tales, part II.
Originally Posted By John_in_VA
After you get past the grand sweep depicted, at some point you start wondering what everyone is fighting about.
As if romance and religion are the only things worth fighting for. Didn't you listen to Merry when he was trying to convince the Ents that there is good in this world and that there some things worth fighting for.??? i.e., beer, pipe weed, the Shire, friends, etc....
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 2:07pm |
JasonPrattCenturion
Posts : 583
Joined: 19 MAR 2008
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | As a fantasy author myself (though nowhere near the renown of those discussed [sm=bow.gif] I'm glad to see this thread reborn...
oh, sorry; in the Light of the reason for why it's back up, perhaps I should say:
I'm glad to see This Thread Reborn!!!
(For those who don't know, that's a pun on a title of a main character in the series, plus the title of Book 3.)
Martok: {{[font="verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; "]Don't forget that the Mandragoran name carries enormous weight & influence across the entire Borderland.}}
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[font="verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"]True, dat. It would be like Aragorn returning and announcing his existence as the heir of Isuldur. (Which of course Lan was originally designed to emulate, sort of.) Hardly a spoilery surprise, either, since this was been expected since at least Book 2. (I had no idea it happens in Knife of Dreams, but it was going to happen sooner or later and we're on the downhill slope now. A bigger spoiler would be if he was killed off without fulfilling that plot function.)
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"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 2:25pm |
JasonPrattCenturion
Posts : 583
Joined: 19 MAR 2008
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Pak40
One of the things I hated about Peter Jackson's LoTR movies is this conjured romance between Arwen and Aragorn. It never happened durning the novel.
It did; it just wasn't shown (having largely happened previously to this point as well.)
While I'm not entirely happy with how PJ handled it, I understand why he did it and on the balance I thought it was done well enough.
Though if he was going to reintroduce the sword at so late a date, he really should have had Elrond stay as a surprise aid in the fight, if not bring some elves, to express his commitment to SAVE HIS OWN BELOVED DAUGHTER!!
EXT. PELLANOR FIELDS -- DAY, MORNING
LEGOLAS SLIDES TRIUMPHANTLY off the trunk of a dying, collapsing OLIPHAUNT, right into the path of GIMLI, who stares in astonishment.
GIMLI -- [spluttering] That only counts as _one!_
He is INTERRUPTED by a THUD behind him. He turns to see ELROND, also SLIDING TRIUMPHANTLY off the trunk etc., though a little more out of breath than LEGOLAS.
ELROND -- [after a brisk nod of recognition, to LEGOLAS] Well met, son of Thranduil!
LEGOLAS -- [returns the nod in surprise and joy at seeing his fellow elf; smirks at GIMLI] That's _two_.
GIMLI -- [can't decide where to turn for spluttering, or vice versa]
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 2:28pm |
JasonPrattCenturion
Posts : 583
Joined: 19 MAR 2008
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Pak40
As if romance and religion are the only things worth fighting for. Didn't you listen to Merry when he was trying to convince the Ents that there is good in this world and that there some things worth fighting for.??? i.e., beer, pipe weed, the Shire, friends, etc....
Frickin' survival in a world not dominated by a mid-ranking demon...
[sm=00000619.gif]
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 2:53pm |
BesilariusCommander
Posts : 1543
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Offline | Glen Cook's Black Company series is always worth a look.
If you can find Tim Power's Last Call or Anubis Gates, these are very well crafted.
However, there is no other work to compare to Bimbos of the Death Sun.
"When I must choose an officer to perform an act that requires a good brain, everything else being equal, I choose the one with the biggest nose." - Napoleon
"If you'll believe that, you'll believe anything." - the Duke of Wellington
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| 10 DEC 2009 at 3:18pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | Gutenburg Project offers some virtual book browsing opportunities. I like the Down Under site on the world's biggest island or world's rediculously smallest continent Outback :
http://gutenberg.net.au/
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 11 DEC 2009 at 11:36am |
Pak40Centurion
Posts : 640
Joined: 8 JAN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JasonPratt
Originally Posted By Pak40
One of the things I hated about Peter Jackson's LoTR movies is this conjured romance between Arwen and Aragorn. It never happened durning the novel.
It did; it just wasn't shown (having largely happened previously to this point as well.)
While I'm not entirely happy with how PJ handled it, I understand why he did it and on the balance I thought it was done well enough.
I think Tolkien wrote more about it in the appendix than the actual novel itself. Anyway, I thought it was well done in the movie; I was just upset that he spent so much time on "added content", i.e. stuff that never happened in the book, and yet omitted some key chapters and details that were in the book.
Other examples of BS made up stuff for the movies that upset me were: Warg attack and Aragorn's "death" over the cliff, dead ghosts at the Battle of Peleanor fields, and bringing the hobbits to Osgiliath. The whole Osgiliath battle was nice to see but it was unnecesary to bring the hobbits there.
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| 11 DEC 2009 at 3:05pm |
JasonPrattCenturion
Posts : 583
Joined: 19 MAR 2008
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | I thought the Warg battle was fine (especially considering it was plopped in more-or-less ad hoc), and added some punch to the mid-section of the movie (which was why they did it anyway. Plus it does seem unlikely Saruman wouldn't try ambushing them before they got to Helm's Deep.) The dwarf humor was painful, but bearable--not the worst in the movie trilogy by far. (The drinking scene in RotK was far far far worse than anything else...)
The 'death' over the cliff was wince-inducing as a plot trope, but again from a dramatic standpoint I can see why they tried it. (Ditto the dream featuring Arwen--not quite as wince-inducing, and again I understood why they tried it, but the horse at the end is painfully wrong-headed...)
Hobbits in Osgiliath: mainly annoying because the topography has to be handwaved away. From a dramatic standpoint I understand again why they thought they had to do it (and it works even better in the extended edition, because it shows the extent of Faramir's temptation and what it really costs him--in the book, he might as well be the purely innocent Bombadil over whom the ring has no dominion!) Fan-winky/unintended humor in an otherwise dramatic moment: "By all rights we shouldn't even BE here!"
Dead ghosts at Battle of Pelannor... um... actually, wasn't that about the only thing involving the ghosts in the movie that WAS taken more-or-less from the books?! Almost everything else involving them was invented for the movie. (Some of which made less than no sense at all.)
For a highly amusing (and weekend-killing) webcomic spoof-critiquing the movies, the books, and the irony that despite inspiring the original D& RPGs the books/movies would make horrid RPGs, see here:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
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| 11 DEC 2009 at 4:47pm |
Pak40Centurion
Posts : 640
Joined: 8 JAN 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JasonPratt
I thought the Warg battle was fine (especially considering it was plopped in more-or-less ad hoc), and added some punch to the mid-section of the movie (which was why they did it anyway. Plus it does seem unlikely Saruman wouldn't try ambushing them before they got to Helm's Deep.) The dwarf humor was painful, but bearable--not the worst in the movie trilogy by far. (The drinking scene in RotK was far far far worse than anything else...)
Yea, I guess the warg attack it self wasn't so bad except for Aragorn 'death' scene...read below.
Originally Posted By JasonPratt
The 'death' over the cliff was wince-inducing as a plot trope, but again from a dramatic standpoint I can see why they tried it. (Ditto the dream featuring Arwen--not quite as wince-inducing, and again I understood why they tried it, but the horse at the end is painfully wrong-headed...) Yes, it was very contrived. And did Jackson actually think he was going to fool people that Aragorn had actually died at this point in the trilogy? Whether you had read LoTR or not when you saw this scene you had to be thinking to yourself, "yea right, like they're going to kill off a major character like Aragorn right in the middle of the Trilogy." Tolkien already did that with Gandalf in Moria and it was poorly conceived to try it again especially with a large audience that knows the plot.
Originally Posted By JasonPratt
Hobbits in Osgiliath: mainly annoying because the topography has to be handwaved away. From a dramatic standpoint I understand again why they thought they had to do it (and it works even better in the extended edition, because it shows the extent of Faramir's temptation and what it really costs him--in the book, he might as well be the purely innocent Bombadil over whom the ring has no dominion!) Fan-winky/unintended humor in an otherwise dramatic moment: "By all rights we shouldn't even BE here!"
Topography wasn't such a big issue. Ithilien wasn't too far from Osgiliath and Jackson cleverly solved the river crossing with the 'sewers' that run under the city. Again, I loved the city battle scenes I just don't know why he felt the need to bring the hobbits there and also make Faramir seem like more of an ass than he was in the novel.
Originally Posted By JasonPratt
Dead ghosts at Battle of Pelannor... um... actually, wasn't that about the only thing involving the ghosts in the movie that WAS taken more-or-less from the books?! Almost everything else involving them was invented for the movie. (Some of which made less than no sense at all.)
No, the dead never went to Pelannor. They fulfilled their oat that the battle of Pelargir. Aragorn released them from their obligation at that point, gathered the Gondorian survivors at Pelargir and then used the boats to sail up the river towards Minas Tirith.
The dead at Pelannor was completely made up BS plot change and not only that, but it looked horrible on film when the ghosts swept over the fields and up the walls of Minas Tirith like ants. B rated special effects.
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| 11 DEC 2009 at 6:29pm |
mhoweCenturion
Posts : 191
Joined: 9 AUG 2006
Status : Online | I also really disliked the dead coming to Minas Tirith. The initial meeting between Aragorn and the king of the dead was well done. One of the things I disliked most in the movie was Frodo fooling for Gollum's trick and telling Sam to go home. I thought this was completely unfaithful to Tolkien's portrayal of Sam the ever-faithful, and at odds with one of the major themes of the trilogy. Also didn't like: Legolas shield-surfing down the steps at Helm's Deep; Legolas singly-handedly bringing down the oliphaunt; the elven archers showing up at Helm's deep; Saruman bringing the blizzard to the fellowship in the mountains (it was Sauron); ents being so stupid that hobbits have to trick them into going to war; Gandalf knocking Denethor out with his staff; Denethor making a long running jump in full flame off the peak of Minas
Tirith; Sauron being a disembodied spirit whereas in the book he was quite physical; worst of all, and this goes right along with the wrong interpretation of the army of the dead, Sauron's forces breaching the gates of Minas Tirth and pouring in (the enemy never sets foot in Minas Tirith, and it beats me why they chose to rewrite one of the most dramatic moments in the trilogy, the face-to-face confrontation between Gandalf and The Witch King as the horn of Rohan sounds). Despite all the criticisms, though, I thought the movies also had some great moments and I enjoyed them very much.
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