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| 7 JAN 2010 at 9:43am |
JasonPrattCenturion
Posts : 583
Joined: 19 MAR 2008
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By destraex
BTW whats the obsession people seem to have with the Ardennes? The germans seem to be completely outgunned here from the start.
I mean using Panthers in villages and the like.... stupidity and desperation. Offcourse its going to be stopped easily, unless the allies were complete twits. Were the allies "ever" in any danger at this stage of the war...
I expect the interest comes down to:
1.) this was the last big operation of the war that wasn't just the eventual loser being curb-stomped.
2.) relatedly, the sheer guts (or craziness) of the attempt is kind of admirable in the abstract.
3.) and the sheer craziness of the attempt _DID_ work, briefly, for a while.
So it's tempting to play in a couple of ways. Could the Allies have done better at the start? Could the Germans have created (or recreated rather) one more layer of protective lebensraum?
Also,
4.) it features some of the most gorgeous 'scenery' of the war;
5.) it features some of the hardest core defensive stances of the war; (his reply was one word: "Nuts.")
6.) pretty much all the best non-experimental toys are out to play with.
As to what the Germans thought they could accomplish: assuming there was any sane plan at all, I expect it was to win by breaking the allied will to fight, thus creating a political standoff where the Allied forces call it 'enough of a win' and stop offensive operations so their boys can go home. That would fit pretty well with normal European war policy going back to the Dark Ages. Hitler, or his general staff, knew it wasn't going to work with Stalin, because Stalin was an evil barbarian who actually _wanted_ to take over everything. The Allies were fighting a war of protection, basically. They (or the European allies anyway) might be convinced to let Germany keep some ground, or heck Germany could even trade it back to them at no further loss in return for a peace treaty. As for the Americans, it wasn't _their_ continent anyway, so why would any of them want to fight? The _perception_ by the Germans (which at ground level was probably pretty accurate) was that the expeditionary troops were ready to pack it up with a mission accomplished. None of them (as far as German cultural superiority theory was concerned) really had the heart to crush Germany down with a boot on its face.
If they were going to have a prayer of staving off Stalin, Germany _HAD_ to end the Western Front (and Southern, which was Western, too, by that time). One way or another, a successful counteroffensive would give Germany something to negotiate with; while reducing Allied troop morale to the point, not so much of capitulation, but of resentment about continuing. It would also, not incidentally, provide Germany with more resources to try holding off Stalin.
So, yeah, it wasn't a bad plan really, all things considered. It just didn't work. {g}
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
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| 7 JAN 2010 at 9:48am |
JasonPrattCenturion
Posts : 583
Joined: 19 MAR 2008
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | By the way, did Panther Games ever create a formal strategy guide for Conquest of the Aegean, like they did for Highway to the Reich? Despite some proof-reading errors, they wrote a great historical analysis of Market-Garden, synching it up with the missions and engine of the game.
(Maybe it was included with CotA itself? I haven't bought that game yet...)
Naturally, the next question will be: a formal strat guide and historical analysis of Bulge, too?
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
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| 7 JAN 2010 at 11:39am |
MarkShotCommander
Posts : 2935
Joined: 3 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Sorry, no (COTA) and no to the best of my knowledge (BFTB).
The HTTR Guide is still on sale. It does have some useful material for the series as a whole. (The 50% portion on game play.)
The historical section of the guide was actually included as part of the RDOA manual (published by Battlefront); as far as I know it's the same.
Eddy Sterkxe was kind enough to do a little editting on my three forum guides and create two PDFs out of them. That's how I know that it is around 300 pages. They are available for download from Matrix.
Also, don't forget that the doc set for BFTB is going to weigh in at hundreds of pages. This is not a game with a ten page flyer and a keyboard reference leaving you to figure the rest out on your own or wait for a player inspired WIKI.
Lack of reading materials should not be a problem for BFTB players.
Sadly, the game will only be available in English. Back in the COTA days, I had two projects going to get some abridged form of documentation in Korean and French. Unfortunately, although both had impressive kickoffs, they were never completed. (COTA had received some very impressive coverage at the time in the French gaming print magazines Cyberstratege and PC4WAR.)
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| 7 JAN 2010 at 2:15pm |
JasonPrattCenturion
Posts : 583
Joined: 19 MAR 2008
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MarkShot
Also, don't forget that the doc set for BFTB is going to weigh in at hundreds of pages. This is not a game with a ten page flyer and a keyboard reference leaving you to figure the rest out on your own or wait for a player inspired WIKI.
Lack of reading materials should not be a problem for BFTB players.
Oh, I figured their manual would be extensive. I was just wanting to read their analyses of various operations (or in the case of the Bulge, operation portions).
Many years ago, I had the rare opportunity to buy a first edition hardback copy of Eisenhower's war autobiography _Crusade in Europe_; which (due to my hectic reading schedule + increased lack of time to actually read anything {wry g}) I only this year got around to reading! I was very much looking forward to his assessment of MG, but alas it rated only three or maybe five pages at most. Considering his unfailing loyalty and generosity to his subcommanders, I have to suspect this was due to a reluctance on his part to start blaming people. (As I recall, his final assessment was, in effect, "Monty won, achieved 90% of his goals, in a tougher than expected operation with sad tragedies; most of which difficulty was caused by the weather. No one's fault, really. Moving on to the Bulge then!")
The Panther team's assessment was far more nuanced, while still (I thought) being very evenhanded.
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
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| 7 JAN 2010 at 3:15pm |
ArjunaCenturion
Posts : 201
Joined: 19 SEP 2003
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Jason,
We've been so focussed on finishing the game that no thought has been given to a strategy guide at this stage. We'll review that once the game is out and I've had a rest. []
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| 7 JAN 2010 at 4:40pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | DA 1775 do I need an Allied Wheel Cipher to understand your posts? []
____________________
No Good Sir montfort, but that was a very cool wheel cipher read ! When I was younger my BN CMDR TC repeatedly slammed a hatch shut on my head in order to help me learn and when I get excited about a war game old brain injuries flare-up. It's probably a neurological disorder... 'course, could just be that all that jargon and an Ardennes wargame got me too excited ! I keep thinking about fuzzy warm little hell-hole flamm panzer 3D-2D's ! There was a famous classic rock'n'Roll wargame song about those icons written to Little Richard's Tutti Fruiti. The lyric Tutti Fruiti was replaced by the wargame icon lyric '3D-2D' !
A-Wop-bop-a-loo-lop a-lop-bam-boo
3D-2D's, all over rootie,.....
A-wop-bop-a-loo-lop a-lop bam boo
I got a wargame, named Sue,
She knows just what to do. .....
I've been to the east, I'vebeen to the west, but
she's the gal
That I love the best.
3D-2D's, all over rootie,.....
A-wop-bop-a-loo-lop a-lop bam boo
I got a wargame, named Daisy,
She almost drives me crazy ........
She knows how to love me ,
Yes indeed
Boy you don't know,
What she's doing to me
3D-2D's, all over rootie,.....
A-wop-bop-a-loo-lop a-lop bam boo
I got a game, named Daisy...
PS-- when is Gruss Gott Schwerpunkt coming back from vaction ?
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 7 JAN 2010 at 5:02pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | ... and a couple more here.
I'm at dial-up and the screenie load time was OK and worth it. Not all wargamers are rolling in dough and have state of the art equip/feed-- I don't. I'm working with old TPD and USAF plant #44 employee cast-offs. This is how come easily modded games like rudankort's Ubisoft mod PGF and Battlefront's games have merit, IMO. I hope this game is easy to mod-- give fans the keys to to the icons and map tiles and recruit loyal gamers.
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 8 JAN 2010 at 12:07am |
son_of_montfortColonel
Posts : 8163
Joined: 6 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | I also noticed, from the Matrix forums, that GG War in the East is getting "closer." It seems BftB is going to "pop" first, but maybe... just maybe... we will have GGWitE by mid-Spring? Looks as if they started some Alpha-Beta/Beta-Alpha last month, with some tweaking and bug squashing, and the manual needs writing - along with the requisite "adding in of multimedia like sounds, etc. But for a Matrix release - that is getting much closer to being done!
I wonder if GGWitE will ALSO support widescreen (1440x900) like BftB - that little bonus really pushed me toward getting it!
SoM
Son_of_Montfort  "Slander is a poison which extinguishes charity, both in the slanderer and in the persons who listen to it." Bernard of Clairvaux
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| 8 JAN 2010 at 5:40pm |
LlyranorCenturion
Posts : 58
Joined: 27 MAR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Really looking forward to this game. Arjuna's last response hints at February.
Game looks really nice in widescreen, and the interface is incredibly slick.
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| 8 JAN 2010 at 9:48pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | and the manual needs writing...
You got a Point of Contact ? I love to write. I need to wrap-up the think tank start-up submissions with G.R.A.V.I.T.E.A.M. and look for a new mission. MATRIX... I owe 'em. winSPWAW is fun !
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 8 JAN 2010 at 11:03pm |
son_of_montfortColonel
Posts : 8163
Joined: 6 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Llyranor
Really looking forward to this game. Arjuna's last response hints at February.
Game looks really nice in widescreen, and the interface is incredibly slick.
Well... a bit longer than I expected, but it gives me some time to play the backlog!
DA 1775, I guess I kinda have a contact, but no better than just soliciting on this forum would get you!
SoM
Son_of_Montfort "Slander is a poison which extinguishes charity, both in the slanderer and in the persons who listen to it." Bernard of Clairvaux
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| 8 JAN 2010 at 11:37pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | I'm gonna git off my butt and finish my Ubernerd submissions to G.R.A.V.T.E.A.M. Front Roads: Kharkov 1943 and then I'll PM you. I asked a Babe writer to volunteer co-write with me if I get the chance to pitch-in on the manual. Win-Win-- Babes & wargames, 10-4 ! She could be an almight Miltary wargame Babe-- and she looks HOT ! She plays dress-up as a Marshal Dillon Gunsmoke saloon Babe an' don't wear cammo, but shows some leg !
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 9 JAN 2010 at 12:24pm |
son_of_montfortColonel
Posts : 8163
Joined: 6 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | You would be better off contacting "Arjuna" above rather than me. I'm only affiliated with people via this website. I don't know if they need any writing help - but I'm sure it doesn't hurt to ask!
LOL... I'm not sure how to respond to the babe writer... Pics maybe? []
February may turn out to be Wargame month:
We have BftB, pretty good shot for February.
Maybe GGWitE will at least give us a good update if it isn't released/
Making History 2 is due on February 15... but that might change.
Looking good if you ask me!
SoM
Son_of_Montfort "Slander is a poison which extinguishes charity, both in the slanderer and in the persons who listen to it." Bernard of Clairvaux
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| 9 JAN 2010 at 9:14pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | Yeah-- pics... me too ! She's a sword fighter. She can fence and wants to teach me. I told her it'll have to be in a public place where the sheeple and cops are used to me doing fixed blade sentry take-down, MBR bayonet drill, and .45 acp execution. I'll try to get some pics of her running me through ! LOL
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 9 JAN 2010 at 9:19pm |
DA 1775Centurion
Posts : 761
Joined: 24 MAY 2009
Status : Online | errata-- getting the Babes confused. I better quit posting before I get banned. The other wargame sites are all wannabes... 'cept maybe JP's.
Olde Tyme SPEARHEAD Soup ! Two (2) Diced Trunion Bearings, One (1) Minced O-Ring water obstacle crossing seal. One (1) Chopped Loader's Hatch Gasket-- beat gasket with Bore Evacuator Spanner Wrench until tender...
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| 12 JAN 2010 at 10:09pm |
SnowBlueCenturion
Posts : 69
Joined: 25 FEB 2009
Status : Online | I will probably buy this game but I confess to becoming bored with watching the battles and often fast forward to see the outcome. I can see why people enjoy the system but I prefer a more active part.
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 7:07am |
MengCiaoCenturion
Posts : 269
Joined: 15 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By destraex
actually I really need to get my bearings on a game like this. I own HTTR but played it once deciding that the premise was good. Actually outstanding. But I do like to see the action.
I have to pull HTTR out again for another look....
BTW whats the obsession people seem to have with the Ardennes? The germans seem to be completely outgunned here from the start.
I mean using Panthers in villages and the like.... stupidity and desperation. Offcourse its going to be stopped easily, unless the allies were complete twits. Were the allies "ever" in any danger at this stage of the war... is this game going to simulate Panthers moving right into villages to meet the time table. German resources being thrown away.The tactical level stuff is what you cannot see and are not informed of and therefore cannot change. Its whats wron with strategic games.
I'm not sure why Panther Games decided to go into the Bulge. I played HTTR and Conquest of the Aegean. I guess after
doing relatively unknown battles such as Crete, the might have decided to do something with a lot more name-recognition.
I agree that the Battle of the Bulge as a game topic seems over-done, but there were a lot of close-run battles there tactically at least and the Panther games version should be pretty interesting.
the corpus of a thousand battles rises from the flood
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 5:34pm |
SnowBlueCenturion
Posts : 69
Joined: 25 FEB 2009
Status : Online | I also don't understand some of the comments justifying the excitement of the battle. For example the siege of Bagstone lasted for around eight days, the besieged force consisted of about 10,000 men and took about 3000+ casualties, how is this some of the toughest defensive fighting of the war?
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 5:51pm |
JohnnieCenturion
Posts : 781
Joined: 1 FEB 2006
Location: US
Status : Offline | C'mon guys. Tanks in the snow. Last German offensive. Patton, Peiper, Eisenhower, Hitler. AMERICANS. AMERICANS in desperate situations.
Sure it was probably hopeless. Much of what the Germans (and Japanese, and Italians) tried in the second world war was hopeless.
If we are going to stop gaming lost causes, we should probably start with the Pacific Campaign and the American Civil War.
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 6:10pm |
skoopCenturion
Posts : 227
Joined: 27 MAY 2005
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SnowBlue
I will probably buy this game but I confess to becoming bored with watching the battles and often fast forward to see the outcome. I can see why people enjoy the system but I prefer a more active part.
My thoughts exactly, I get bored watching this 2D action. They need to have a zoomed in 3D view to actually see those soldiers in action. After conquest of the aegean, I have seen all I want to see with this engine. The AI is good, the interface is good, micromanaging is minimal, but I get bored playing this. This game would be a home run if you could see the individual units fighting in 3D, would sort of spice it up instead of staring at 2D counters slide around on the map.
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 6:15pm |
RobearCenturion
Posts : 612
Joined: 2 OCT 2005
Status : Offline |
I also don't understand some of the comments justifying the excitement of the battle. For example the siege of Bagstone lasted for around eight days, the besieged force consisted of about 10,000 men and took about 3000+ casualties, how is this some of the toughest defensive fighting of the war?
Light infantry rushed to the scene in summer uniforms, encircled in terrible weather with no resupply for 8 days and just the weapons and ammo they had for the movement or could recover from the last remnants of the 28th Infantry, organized in ad-hoc units for the most part with many officers and NCOs already killed or not present, facing a fully stocked four divisions (26th Volksgrenadier, 5th Parachute, 2nd Panzer and Panzer Lehr.) Some anti-tank units and a few tank destroyers, but they were facing an armored corps with an underequipped, undersupplied division. One of the greatest battles of the 101st, without a doubt.
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 6:51pm |
SnowBlueCenturion
Posts : 69
Joined: 25 FEB 2009
Status : Online | That's not what I read, supplies were dropped into Bagstone when the weather cleared and eventually a corridor was opened. I also never heard that the four full divisions were committed to the siege or that they did not in turn have serious fuel and supply problems. Wasn't the main assault during the siege consisted mostly of the Voksgrenadier division? Not exactly a renowned or armoured formation.
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 10:50pm |
ArjunaCenturion
Posts : 201
Joined: 19 SEP 2003
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SnowBlue
That's not what I read, supplies were dropped into Bagstone when the weather cleared and eventually a corridor was opened. I also never heard that the four full divisions were committed to the siege or that they did not in turn have serious fuel and supply problems. Wasn't the main assault during the siege consisted mostly of the Voksgrenadier division? Not exactly a renowned or armoured formation.
Snow Blue,
Actually while the town of Bastogne was beseiged by elements of the 26 VG Div and 5th FJ Div for the assaults on the town the force was heavily reinforced by the 901st PG Regt from Pz Lehr Div ( almost half of Pz Lehr ), the 11th FJ Stg Bde and KG Mauke ( which was about half of the 15th PG Div ). Here's a screen shot from the Battered Bastards scenario. My aplogies for the poor quality but I can only upload 200k files or less.
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 11:08pm |
ArjunaCenturion
Posts : 201
Joined: 19 SEP 2003
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SnowBlue
I will probably buy this game but I confess to becoming bored with watching the battles and often fast forward to see the outcome. I can see why people enjoy the system but I prefer a more active part.
SnowBlue,
A number of people have made similar comments. I believe in part it's because people don't understand what it is that an actual operational level commander does and how they need to monitor things and when they need to intervene. Sure it's about developing plans. But that's only half the job. Few plans survive contact with reality.
As part of the planning process commanders need to identify the likely events that will trigger a response from them. Eg the left assault group breaks or the enemy seizes hill X. And they need to have developed contingencies to respond to these. It is imperative that they maintain a reserve. Then they need to monitor developments and if one of these triggers occur, they need to commit all or a portion of their reserve to respond.
This is not a passive process. Poor commanders sit back and watch, but good ones keep a close eye on events and actively engage when and where needed.
The advanced tutorial from COTA went into this in some detail. But I appreciate that few bother to read it, let alone step through the advanced tutorial scenario. For BFTB we will be including a series of short tutorial movies. We hope that users will take the time to sit back and watch these and gain the insight necessary to be an active operational commander.
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| 13 JAN 2010 at 11:54pm |
SnowBlueCenturion
Posts : 69
Joined: 25 FEB 2009
Status : Online | Well I don't pretend to be a BotB expert and this news certainly makes it more interesting, still I don't think it qualifies as one of the most intense defensive actions of WWII, especially when there are battles that lasted longer and had units melt away in a day. From what I know about Bagstone the town perimeter was never breached in force.
Also I mentioned in my first post that I do play like that in the beginning of each scenario, I check unit casualties, fatigue levels, monitor supply, conduct small unit probes, play the artillery whack-a-mole mini game, do serious LoS checking, watch the fire power line thingies to monitor the exchange. I would actually say that monitoring all that is a lot harder than in a TBS or WEGO system and kind of takes on an inactive management situation of its own.
I am a bit confused about your reserve argument, since nearly all wargames benefit them to some extent and while order delay and the difficulty of repositioning engaged units in the system (which is good) makes having one more crucial, the act of actually committing reserve after assessing the situation is not something unique to CotA or HttR. I also don't understand 'this is what an operational commander does argument' if this game was really like that I would be sending key subordinates to manage crucial sectors, read infrequent reports about battle, and get confusing reports about what is really going on. The game does model information black out to some extent, but I can't say that it is an important part of the engine. I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a difference between modelling the operation level and modelling being a commander on that level.
I actually did play the advanced tutorial, and then I fast forwarded it. There is always a time in the scenario when I sense the AI is beat and there is no point in playing. Right know I am on Day 3 in the Pindos historical scenario and I could already tell for some time that its over. The AI has a tendency to fall for the fishhook and focus all its forces on your first assault leaving its flanks open. Strangely I don't remember HttR AI doing this, maybe its the CotA aggressiveness patch? That being said there are some types of encounters the AI is really good at, but they are not always the ones I enjoy playing.
Despite all that I think the games are fun and provide a unique experience, I will probably buy BftB.
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