| 11 MAR 2010 at 5:02am |
Grim.ReaperCenturion
Posts : 692
Joined: 31 DEC 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Braz24
Oh yeah...does anyone know the release date for the physical version of RoP?
I don't know if there will actually be a physical copy of ROP. Although discussed in their forums, I have seen no committment to it.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 1:06pm |
MarkShotCommander
Posts : 2935
Joined: 3 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | The current official position is that no boxed version is planned.
Of course, anything is subject to change in the future.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 2:36pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | ^Thanks for the scoop!
I hope that Ageod changes thir mind on this...I love Ageod games and own pretty much all of them.
I gotta say that a digital downloads only for RoP really stinks...I'm afraid I don't do the download scene and don't intend to start. I'm very disappointed in the decision as I have been chomping at the bit to pick up a physical copy of RoP and even picked up more books on the Seven Years War to bone up on the period some more.
...kinda takes the wind out of my sails, I'm afraid....
I wonder who decided this? Ageod or Paradox?
I guess if the decision is downloads only, I'm out...pretty much 100% now from Ageod. Yuk!
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 3:12pm |
GreybriarCommander
Posts : 2704
Joined: 30 MAY 2008
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Braz24
Oh yeah...does anyone know the release date for the physical version of RoP?
Since AGEOD is owned by Paradox, and since in the past Paradox has released compilations that included expansions for games that had previously been available only via download, I would hazard a guess that Rise of Prussia will be available as a retail boxed version sometime in the future after an expansion or two. I wouldn't count on it, but I wouldn't rule it out either.
This war is not about slavery. --Robert E. Lee
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 3:15pm |
SeytanCenturion
Posts : 555
Joined: 23 JUL 2009
Location: US
Status : Offline | Only AGEOD product I am waiting for is Vainglory of Nations. ROP though interesting is not as engrossing as say the ACW title. If I want to play scenarios I will break out my SPI Fredrick the Great board game and play that.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 3:59pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | I hope you're right about the possibility of a boxed edition in the future, Greybriar. :-)
I have the Avalon Hill version of the Frederickl the Great board game, not to mention about two or three newer boardgames about the Seven Years War (in moving storage) too...no opponents or even the space (now) to play them.
Ageod's games just had a cool way of playing not to mention plenty of eye-candy (IMHO) with the maps and units. I REALLY was looking forward to RoP...I guess I have to hide and wait to see if a physicial version is in the works for the future...I know I'm whining but *only* a download version....Grrrrrrrrrr.....
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 4:01pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | I guess if Vain glory of Nations goes download only (another game I was looking forward to...), I'm out...If that's the case, I won't be looking for anything from Ageod/Paradox period anymore.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 4:20pm |
MarkShotCommander
Posts : 2935
Joined: 3 MAR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | I am just curious why a download version presents an obstacle assuming that you have broadband access with a reasonable quota.
* You do not need to install any special application to download/install/run (not sure about GG, but AGEOD is just a regular file download).
* You get your serial both with the transaction confirmation page and email confirmation.
* The game is a single download file which is the installer. These days I have gotten some games from Matrix which had nothing more on the CD than a setup.exe.
* You can burn it to a CD or DVD for long-term storage along with serial number. Practically, everyone has a CD burner (if not DVD) these days. If your system is so old not to have a CD burner, then it might be questionable if you meet the specs to run some of these games.
* You end up with a PDF manual. I know that printing manuals can sometimes be a pain. However, the manuals you get these days with box copies tend to no longer be books, but more like hard to read pamphlets. I miss the beautiful manuals of 15 years ago with big boxed games, but they are gone forever.
* Games these days are more than just the installer and manual. They are patches, mods, scenarios, FAQs ... All this other stuff can only be kept if downloaded and written to something. Most AGEOD games will see 8-15 patches through their life cycle. So, getting a boxed copy would in no way represent the ultimate incarnation of the game.
From the publisher's view for niche games, there can be a significant expenditure of cash for production runs. Everything unsold is money down the drain. I still got about 50 units of BOA1 in my basement ... I've been meaning to find the time to take them over to the USO.
Just curious ... Thanks.
Full Disclosure: I am AGEOD's Business Advisor
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 4:24pm |
rossntuCommander
Posts : 1272
Joined: 24 DEC 2008
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Out of interest Braz - what puts you off download only? I'm genuinely not criticising you as it's your money, but it seems strange to me that you would turn down the chance to play a game based on the format it comes in. Do you not trust downloads or is there another reason?
Edit: Doh! Mark got in before me!
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 4:53pm |
Grim.ReaperCenturion
Posts : 692
Joined: 31 DEC 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MarkShot
I am just curious why a download version presents an obstacle assuming that you have broadband access with a reasonable quota.
* You do not need to install any special application to download/install/run (not sure about GG, but AGEOD is just a regular file download).
* You get your serial both with the transaction confirmation page and email confirmation.
* The game is a single download file which is the installer. These days I have gotten some games from Matrix which had nothing more on the CD than a setup.exe.
* You can burn it to a CD or DVD for long-term storage along with serial number. Practically, everyone has a CD burner (if not DVD) these days. If your system is so old not to have a CD burner, then it might be questionable if you meet the specs to run some of these games.
* You end up with a PDF manual. I know that printing manuals can sometimes be a pain. However, the manuals you get these days with box copies tend to no longer be books, but more like hard to read pamphlets. I miss the beautiful manuals of 15 years ago with big boxed games, but they are gone forever.
* Games these days are more than just the installer and manual. They are patches, mods, scenarios, FAQs ... All this other stuff can only be kept if downloaded and written to something. Most AGEOD games will see 8-15 patches through their life cycle. So, getting a boxed copy would in no way represent the ultimate incarnation of the game.
From the publisher's view for niche games, there can be a significant expenditure of cash for production runs. Everything unsold is money down the drain. I still got about 50 units of BOA1 in my basement ... I've been meaning to find the time to take them over to the USO.
Just curious ... Thanks.
Full Disclosure: I am AGEOD's Business Advisor
Have to agree with all these points. I think the only time downloads should be an issue is when the developer puts on some kind of horrible DRM. In the case of AGEOD and others, that is not the case. Just a simple serial number to input.
Personally, the only reasons I buy boxed versions anymore are:
- I happen to find it cheaper
- I happen to find it in a local store (very rare nowadays)
- The size of the download is huge (example, had one game that was 16gb, took nearly most of day to download)
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 5:01pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | I guess I'm a bit old fashioned in that I like holding the programs in my hand and I'm definitely a pro-printed manual in the box kind of guy. that being said, no printed manuals does not always equal not buying...I have zillions of HPS' games and intend to pick up the latest two.
That being said, me printing manuals is an extra expense in addition to purchasing the game. On top of that, going from a large house to half that size apartment, space for printed manuals becomes important (considering how many games these days have no manuals and printing them all up...heck, I don't have much room now for my books as it is).
I realize the days of the big printed manuals (from 15 years ago or so) are over (though I long for those days) I really appreciate the software companies printing manuals in the box, like War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. It's pretty thick and not a pamphlet. I hate going back and forth between game screens and the online manuls in other games...it takes the fun out of it for me because it is very distracting. many other companies have printed thick manuals...maybe I should be thanking Matrix (for example) for printing many (not all) their games with manuals. At any rate, DVD cases with manuals inside don't take up near the room of thick printed-at-the-printshop manual.
My computer is only a a couple of years old and was (is) still screaming fast with a pretty decent graphics card...performance is not the issue...yet. ;-)
I have always been a bit disappointed in just how often and how large many game patch files are. I totally get the games are large files and their are tons of different machines out their, and things may need to be tweaked. I do download patches to my games and do realize that the original games are not the ultimate incantation. I also keep my patches on jump drives for fture use on other machines. I tend to hang on to my games longer than most other gamers (so it seems)...You know me form the forum...I play DOS games alot more than most gamers do.
It sounds like RoP is the exception to download only games in that their isn't a DRM installed and you don't have to be hooked to the internet to play. I don't buy those games either...My loss for the new Napoleon: Total War and many other cool sounding title. The point is, for now I can concede that regardless if Ageod or Paradox goes belly up, I can still play the game if I've burned it to DVD based on MS's post.
I guess it comes down to I like to have something tangible in my hands for something I pay for. I know that is not always the case in life but for PC games, it should be. Heck, console gamers still get the games, in a box, with a manual of some sort inside...Yes...they don't have many deep strategy wargames out there either...I know...
It's the same difference really as the kids today brought up on computers from K to 12. You get used to it. I grew up on printed textbooks without computers (in school)...I bought my first computer when I was of college age back in 1984 (talk about great manuals for programs...look at the old Atari XL program manuals!). It comes down to what you're used to.
Yes, things change and I've been right there changing right along most of those things. I just have a tough time with giving in to downloads.
Hard drives fail too. If a game (like RoP) allows me to burn a DVD, then it's a walk in the park and a no brainer. If the is from other companies, then I would need to prove that I am not pirating the game and my HD failed or maybe I bought a new system and want the game on that HD.
All of these things can be circumvented or by-passed, but this is why I don't like downloads. It's just my opinion or how I feel about this.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 5:07pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | ross_ntu did bring up another point. I don't necessarily trust game companies with downloads and my HD. I have nothing to hide there but then again, is my business whats on my computer and I don't need anyone adding unwanted software, adware, malware, what ever, onto my HD or just snooping to see what is on the HD for marketing or malicious purposes. I'm not pointing any fingers at Ageod or Paradox...but the DRM bologna and the adware on other games based on where I surfed or what is on my HD (I don't remember where or when these things came up...BTW)...well it's just wrong than "others" can look into or add in programs that are unwanted...I'm beating a dead horse and I'm also speaking generically about downloads in general.
Again...I'm not implying AGeod or Paradox does this kind of thing...I'm just wary of of the possiblity with other companies doing all this kind of thing.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 5:10pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | Grim.Reaper brings up another point. Large downloads and long times downloading...heck, some patches take a long time to download.
Let's face it, games aren't gonna be any smaller for file size in the future. So, you either keep buying faster computers, modems, and upgrading your internet bandwidth speeds, or you suffer through with long download times.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 5:21pm |
Grim.ReaperCenturion
Posts : 692
Joined: 31 DEC 2009
Status : Offline | Braz24,
I understand your points and in a perfect world I would love to have boxed copies. However, like you stated, manuals nowadays are very lacking so really not enough of a reason anymore and even if you download software, in most cases you can burn to a CD so you can have in your posession.
What I really miss about boxed copies is the actual art on the cover. I know that sounds stupid, but I remember in the early days when companies like SSI and Talonsoft had some very cool covers that made you think the game should play great even if it really didnt
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 5:45pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | @Grim.Reaper
I don't think liking the art on the covers is dumb at all. I did alot of artwork for "The Gamers" brand wargames (board wargames, that is) including some of the box art as well. I appreciate good artwork and appreciate the effort of the artists too.
As far as the manuals go, games like WitP:AE and CoG:EE came with printed manuals that were a gosend! owned the orginal versions of the games and had to print the manuals up myself (via Office Max) at additional expense...Heck, the original WitP was about $70 bucks as it was. The newer edition came with a nice thick, printed manual. I couldn't have been happier. I can only hope that War in the East will come with a printed manual.
I bought Ageod's WWI and the printed manual it came with wasn't good. The PDF had to do (I never printed it up) to learn to play...it was a pretty long manual and really tough to read and play at the same time (at least for me anyway). The point there is lack of a printed manual isn't always a break and no buy situation for me. The rest of the other points I made still stand though.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 5:51pm |
Grim.ReaperCenturion
Posts : 692
Joined: 31 DEC 2009
Status : Offline | Fair enough You are right about the Matrix manuals, but they are probably the exception nowadays. Defintely not trying to change your mind, everyone has their own likes and dislikes.
Hopefully developers find a way to serve both types of people in the future, but I suspect the direct download process is gaining momentum and at some point, most if not all games will be downloads.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 8:46pm |
JohnnieCenturion
Posts : 781
Joined: 1 FEB 2006
Location: US
Status : Offline | I've come full circle on manuals. I used to favor boxed games because they usually came with a manual. These days, if they do, indeed, come with a manual, it's often in VERY small print and much harder to read than a pdf that I print out at my office. This is true even with beautifully and professionally done manuals, like those for WITP & FOF.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 8:50pm |
RogsCenturion
Posts : 115
Joined: 25 OCT 2006
Status : Online |
too busy playing rise of prussia . . .
quick AAR
my Austrians under von Browne managed to get to Pirna and push Frederick away in late 1756 - thats almost 2 extra corps of Saxons available to the Imperial war effort (the only time across 4 scenarios & 4 attempts to relieve Pirna that I succeeded in doing so - the 3 previous attempts were in the demo)
over winter enormous amounts of logistical work organising the Austrian army and shoving it up that bloody highway from Vienna to Prague. It's raining or its snowing or the Austrian generals are too sleepy or got tangled up in their feather quilts or missed out on their cafe-au-lait because the wagons with their silver service and escritoires haven't arrived yet . . .
all the while Daun is camped at Pirna in the snow with Frederick glaring at the hills from the baroque terraces of Dresden.
Come spring most of the Austrian army is still crawling along the highway as Daun's 3 corps at Pirna repel a few Prussian probes.
Come summer Frederick finally breaks camp heading westwards, probably reacting to the French/Imperial invasion of Hesse-Kassel; Daun's corps attack and take Dresden after a brief siege, on the second assault. By June 1757 the Russian army crosses the border into East Prussia and the French besiege Kassel and Wesel. On the main front Daun is preoccupied absorbing reinforcements while garrisoning Dresden and eyeing Torgau. Charles, on the Olmutz-Brunn corridor, fails to stop a light Prussian flying column from reaching Vienna and briefly placing the capital under siege. He waddles after valiantly.
It's fun, comprehensive and colourful; there's a few glitches, the map is a bit eccentric and not up to the AACW standard; they are looking at a revised map in a later patch. Roads and movement are a bit odd, the fastest way even with guns is often not on the roads, which begs the question as to why anyone bothered building highways. But overall it is AACW in the 1750s with the European theatre of the SYW simulated in detail, which must be a first, even including boardgames.
The AI seems ok so far, I haven't seen a full scale attack by the Prussian main army on the Austrian main army, but apart from Dresden so far i have been emulating Daun and staying in the hills, so maybe the Prussian AI also emulates its model.
All up, highly recommended, if you can tolerate the odd glitch characteristic of nearly all first releases of digital wargames these days (I have high hopes of SoW-Gettysburg on this score).
[i]the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion[/i] -- United States Senate, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 9:29pm |
MartokColonel
Posts : 4028
Joined: 4 JUN 2005
Location: US, Minnesota
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Braz24
I guess I'm a bit old fashioned in that I like holding the programs in my hand and I'm definitely a pro-printed manual in the box kind of guy. that being said, no printed manuals does not always equal not buying...
I guess it comes down to I like to have something tangible in my hands for something I pay for. I know that is not always the case in life but for PC games, it should be. Heck, console gamers still get the games, in a box, with a manual of some sort inside...Yes...they don't have many deep strategy wargames out there either...I know...
Yes, things change and I've been right there changing right along most of those things. I just have a tough time with giving in to downloads.
Hard drives fail too. If a game (like RoP) allows me to burn a DVD, then it's a walk in the park and a no brainer. If the is from other companies, then I would need to prove that I am not pirating the game and my HD failed or maybe I bought a new system and want the game on that HD.
All of these things can be circumvented or by-passed, but this is why I don't like downloads. It's just my opinion or how I feel about this.
This largely sums up my own feelings on the subject as well.
While a couple of my reasons for eschewing digital-download-only games are practical, in the end, probably the biggest reason why I can't/won't make the switch is that I'm just old-fashioned (at least in this respect). I need to have something physical in my hands that I can hold and touch [size="1"](no innuendo intended!).
"I happen to believe that both parties deserve a good scouring with a metal brush and sent to their room without reelection" - Steelgrave
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| 11 MAR 2010 at 11:18pm |
phredd1Commander
Posts : 1066
Joined: 10 SEP 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Johnnie
I've come full circle on manuals. I used to favor boxed games because they usually came with a manual. These days, if they do, indeed, come with a manual, it's often in VERY small print and much harder to read than a pdf that I print out at my office. This is true even with beautifully and professionally done manuals, like those for WITP & FOF.
I agree, most printed manuals aren't what they used to be. Even with reading glasses that can be tough on the eyes, and the case box is too small to allow of a decent size print. Alas, I no longer work at a copy shop and I miss that little perk.......................
One mistake, and you're sliding down the razor blade of defeat, and a dull, rusted, and poisoned blade at that.
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| 12 MAR 2010 at 11:58am |
ActionJackColonel
Posts : 7885
Joined: 19 SEP 2005
Status : Offline | I played the starter scenario of the game Midway (Wake Is.) to conclusion. I must say I like it. It was more spine tingling than Harpoon. I learned the hard way that the first hint of a strike against your task force is not to be taken lightly. I had lost contact with the enemy fleet and my strike was searching for it. Prior to that, my strike on the way to the enemy fleet encountered a force which I suspected was heading for my TF. I readied my remaining planes but did not launch because my search planes had lost contact with his fleet. I tried to side step the suspected incoming strike since I had no hint of any enemy search planes in my area. Bad decision! Planes on the deck of a spotted carrier are a disaster waiting to happen. Fortunately, I suffered only a few hits but enough to award the computer a minor victory despite my strike finding, hitting and damaging the enemy carrier. Timing is everything in this game.
"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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| 12 MAR 2010 at 12:26pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | @ActionJack
Midway sounds like it will be a hoot! I haven't got it yet but I will very soon!
@Martok
I knew I wasn't alone in how I felt about this "issue."...not that I needed validation or anything. It's good to know I'm not alone though.
I know wargamers on the pc are a niche market even is you sell to the masses (like the Total War series). But, that being said, even the wargames that make it to the masses (sold in stores like Walmart , BestBuy and others) still use physical dvd or boxes with DVDs inside and some form of a manual...there is apparently a good reason for this ($$$ obviously...it's what drives the any business afterall).
I know Electronic Arts or who ever distributes Napoleon Total War has tons of cash and sells to a larger customer base/demographic etc. and can keep box and disc cost lower than maybe Ageod or even Paradox... but there is a reason why they have the physical games out on the shelves. Plain and simple, it is for making money. Maybe digital downloads are the trend of the future, maybe not...but the "big boys" have boxed wargames on the shelves or available via online stores, I see no obvious reason why Ageod/Paradox couldn't do the same thing. That is, boxed games like they have always offered previously...but for new titles(even if it is for "old-fashioned" wargamers like myself)...If they won't, then I guess I can cross my fingers and hope Matrix will decide to take up this "cause" for RoP and VGN.
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| 12 MAR 2010 at 1:42pm |
Braz24Centurion
Posts : 737
Joined: 3 AUG 2006
Status : Offline | ...Does this mean that Ageod's WWI Gold is also going to be download only?
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| 12 MAR 2010 at 2:30pm |
MikeckCommander
Posts : 1396
Joined: 28 DEC 2008
Status : Offline | Man I hope not. Except for the crappy WW1 manual that came with the game (a subsequent PDF was over 100 pages so that was nice) I love AGEODS set up. Nice plastic box with great art and a nice thick glossy manual with color photos. I still pick up my AACW manual every now and again even though its held together with tape and somewhat obselete (15 patches later)
"love is preserved by link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails."
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