| 7 SEP 2010 at 2:41pm |
Centurion40General
Posts : 10892
Joined: 31 OCT 2003
Location: CA, Halifax
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By fullhouse
Imagine if the situation was reversed with a Mosque deciding to burn a Bible on 9/11, there would be up roar.
It wouldn't suprise me if some Iman do that very thing... I'm sure that it's been done in the past. I say that with the same certainty that some fundamentalist pastor somewhere has already burned a Koran or two.
Personally, I believe in tit for tat. Let the dumbass pastor burn a Koran, in return the Muzzies get to burn down the Westboro Baptist Church.
Fair compromise, I say....
"I love Anne Hathaway and her penchant for nudity." -The Dawg of Metal
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 2:47pm |
critterCommander
Posts : 1170
Joined: 7 APR 2004
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Centurion40
Originally Posted By fullhouse
Imagine if the situation was reversed with a Mosque deciding to burn a Bible on 9/11, there would be up roar.
It wouldn't suprise me if some Iman do that very thing... I'm sure that it's been done in the past. I say that with the same certainty that some fundamentalist pastor somewhere has already burned a Koran or two.
Personally, I believe in tit for tat. Let the dumbass pastor burn a Koran, in return the Muzzies get to burn down the Westboro Baptist Church.
Fair compromise, I say....
[sm=goodpost.gif]
You know what's sad? My first thought was, "Gah! She overcooked the bacon!" - Martok
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 2:52pm |
TpekCommander
Posts : 2923
Joined: 29 NOV 2009
Status : Offline | Would there be an uproar had Muslims burned a US Flag? Nope. Never been when they done that thousands of times.
Would there be an uproar had they burned a Bible? Nope, same situation as above.
As for the "Very small percentage", nice statistics. Then how come Muslims countries are filled with support for terrorism (not to mention the terrorists themselves)? how come any country that gets close to Islam starts supporting and carrying out terrorism, genocide, massacres, murders and other attacks against everyone else (other Muslims included)?
Muslims go berserk whenever anyone looks funny at a Mosque, and yet they blow up their own mosques on a daily basis.
Tpek... Eating Spaghetti Bolognese ever since I could read (and by that performing Dei-digestion).
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 3:17pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15393 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | ^"Generalizations" are made for characterizations in films, Tpek.
It decreases the need for description and dialogue to be representative of commonly used nouns, mostly persons.
Your statement is overbroad and I don't buy it.
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 3:22pm |
AshturCenturion
Posts : 413
Joined: 26 APR 2005
Status : Offline | This reminds me of the issue over the cartoons in a very important way. Many in the Muslim world do not live in nations that have the freedoms we live under. This is obvious, but it's also worthwhile for us to take a moment and think about what that truly means.
I had this pointed out by a friend who was an exchange student in Egypt some years back. In many of the nations where Islam is the predominant religion, there really isn't a free press. The press is, to a fair degree, an extention of the state. Thus, they're used to seeing what crawls out of the press being "Unofficially official". They don't have experience seeing that a Danish Newspaper is... just that, a Danish newspaper. (Though, I will admit, many who did understand that distinction wanted the state to impose laws to ban printing the comics).
We're running into this to an extent now. Those of us who live within the United States generally understand taht this guy is well out there on the fringe. He may not quite be as far out on the limb as Phelps is, but he's hardly "typical" either. Those in the Middle East may well not have that particular understanding, thinking he's a fairly typical representative.
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 3:42pm |
pirimeisterCenturion
Posts : 110
Joined: 9 AUG 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Centurion40
It wouldn't suprise me if some Iman do that very thing... I'm sure that it's been done in the past. I say that with the same certainty that some fundamentalist pastor somewhere has already burned a Koran or two.
I would be surprised if that happened, because Muslims respect the Bible as the quasi-definitive word of God. Jesus is the second most important figure in Islam, with only Mohammed before him. Although Christianity and Islam differ in the way each considers who Jesus is (part man part expression of of God vs. a normal human being), Islam values the words of Christ. For Muslims, the Bible is Windows Vista, the Koran, a Windows that has yet to be released (since they consider it the perfect revelation of the word of God and we can all agree that there's no perfect Windows yet... ;-)).
JERRY:"Vomitting is not a deal breaker. If Hitler had vomitted on Chamberlain,Chamberlain still would have given him Czechoslovakia".
GEORGE:"Chamberlain... You could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe"
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 3:43pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15393 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | cuckoo
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 3:56pm |
UberhauskaninichenCenturion
Posts : 465
Joined: 22 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Islam has developed anti-missile lasers: http://grognews.blogspot.com/2010/09/anti-missile-lasers-for-helicopters.html
with all apologies to Brant Guillory.
"I am a thirty second bomb. I am a thirty second bomb. Twenty-nine, twenty-eight..." Robert A. Heinlein [U]Starship Troopers[/U] 1959
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:00pm |
HAL9000Centurion
Posts : 308
Joined: 25 MAR 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Gusington
Any kind of book burning is a tad unsavory to me. Just sayin'.
Precisely. +1
This story reminds me of another story back in December 2001 in Alamogordo, New Mexico where my father and stepmom used to live.
The pastor of the Christ Community Church of Alamogordo, Jack Brock, had a Harry Potter book burning shortly after Christmas. Jack Brock preached a sermon on the topic "The Baby Jesus Or Harry Potter?". Brock stated he considered the Harry Potter books to be "an example of our society's growing preoccupation with the occult. The Potter books present witchcraft as a generally positive practice, while the Bible expressly condemns all occult practices." After the burning of the Harry Potter books and some others the pastor's sermon and the book burning event became the topic of news features in both the United States and England.
The pastor also had tried to get permission from the local county sheriff's department to use their incinerator for the book burning.
Not a big surprise, he was denied the use of it.
"I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted." -Georgie Best
[image]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zv6UdKQeJzM/SvJJjGPVi2I/AAAAAAAAAXg/OjqxSFpy_Fw/s400/m100151a_P1MB1SkullPassArt.jpg[/image]
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:07pm |
pirimeisterCenturion
Posts : 110
Joined: 9 AUG 2007
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Azzurri
cuckoo
Assuming you're refering to my post, why "cuckoo"'?
(and if you were not, I apologise)
JERRY:"Vomitting is not a deal breaker. If Hitler had vomitted on Chamberlain,Chamberlain still would have given him Czechoslovakia".
GEORGE:"Chamberlain... You could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe"
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:08pm |
bboyer66Colonel
Posts : 4709
Joined: 17 APR 2006
Location: US, Pittsburgh PA
Status : Offline | ^^^
Harry Potter, well thats different, someone has to stop this guy
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:14pm |
Otis CampbellCenturion
Posts : 92
Joined: 2 MAY 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Azzurri
It's fun to sit and watch the non-religious type sit and watch which religion is "true" while being fought over.
Azzurri....believed in God's Christian religion before I could read.
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
Thank you for making my point so eloquently.
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:16pm |
SwatterCommander
Posts : 1280
Joined: 31 AUG 2003
Location: US, MO
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Saint Ruth
Originally Posted By Jsherfy
time ago I found someone's essay which pointed out that Christians had very much been happy to use the sword to spread the word many years and centuries ago. The interesting thing this person pointed out was that as western governments started to have separation of church and state this seemed to put an end of the church using the military of the state to spread its influence. Look at South America. Why are there so many Catholics there
South American is Catholic because the Spanish and Portugese went there.
But they did not go there because of God, they went there because of Gold.
Christainity spread though Europe peacefully (the majority of the time).
Most forced convertions was one Christian group trying to convert another Christain group.
And one should note that Christian Holy Wars, the Crusades, had no interest in using the sword to spread the faith. They did not go to the holy land to convert the locals, but to recapture the Holy Lands.
Now, are you suggesting that the Christian churches are using the US military to spread Christianity??
Are you saying that the Christian Chruch ordered the US gov to invade Irag?
As to burning the koran...that's decidedly unChristian IMHO...
I have to protest you interpretation of history. It is true that the Spanish were drawn to the New World with promises of wealth and gold, but they also arrived in the New World with a strong vision of spreading their faith. The Spanish paid very serious attention to converting the natives. In addition, christianity in Europe has a violent and intolerant history until after the Thirty Years War.
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:21pm |
TpekCommander
Posts : 2923
Joined: 29 NOV 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Azzurri
^"Generalizations" are made for characterizations in films, Tpek.
It decreases the need for description and dialogue to be representative of commonly used nouns, mostly persons.
Your statement is overbroad and I don't buy it.
These are not generalizations. Many Muslims do burn US Flags, and Bibles. And many Muslims do support terrorism.
So far Muslim countries that have been peaceful, are those that were more secular and refrained from radical Islam. When those (such as Turkey, or several central Asian Muslim nations) started being under the effects of Islam more and more, they tended to favor violence more and more.
The saying that it is a very small percentage is very misleading. Even if only 15% of the Islamic world is made of those who hold the gun and the bomb and use them. There are 50% who hold the hands of the 15%, supporting them, encouraging them, and giving them the legitimacy to carry out their action. The man who orders the killing of others is no less guilty than the one who carries out the murder itself.
Not all Muslims are bad, but there is a too large percentage that are. Islam is quite problematic these days, moreso than other religions. While the rest of the world's religions had their Dark&Evil Times, they came out of them. Islam, rather than going forward and secularizing and humanizing, went backwards and started embracing those Dark&Evil ideas.
Living in the Middle-East I've had a very good look at the difference, for an example, between Christians and Muslims. Let me tell you there is a VERY HUGE difference in regards to mentality. No matter how much they are wronged, Christians always forgive and are willing to aide others in need. They will be very reluctant to resort to violence, and prefer to settle things peacefully. The Muslims on the other hand, will fully riot, burn and run amok at something that others would not even consider a provocation.
And don't tell me these are generalizations, I see such cases very often.
When you live in my place, you can clearly see the different behaviors of Christians and Muslim Arabs, up to the point that you can easily tell an Arab's religion simply by the way s/he reacts to things. Same people, Palestinian Arabs with Israeli citizenship, acting completely different, with the main difference between them being some are Muslims and some are Christians.
EDIT: Some more:
To further my point. Islam is worse than Christianity, not because one religion is right while the other is wrong, but because Islam is stuck at a stage Christianity has already passed, the stage of secularization and distancing from religious fanaticism.
Any religion, such as Christianity, Judaism and even Atheism are capable of deteriorating into bad habits of extreme fanaticism, but fortunately they have mostly managed to avoid it. If Islam could be reworked and brought to the stage other religions are at, it would be great. And at the same note, if other religions' followers would start venturing deeper and deeper into fanaticism, that would be catastrophic and bad.
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:23pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15393 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Otis Campbell
Originally Posted By Azzurri
It's fun to sit and watch the non-religious type sit and watch which religion is "true" while being fought over.
Azzurri....believed in God's Christian religion before I could read.
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
Thank you for making my point so eloquently.
And thank you for so eloquently defining faith for us.
Some of us have it.
And, as you can attest, some don't.
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:27pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15393 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | Tpek, do you roughly know the population of practicing Muslims?
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:41pm |
SwatterCommander
Posts : 1280
Joined: 31 AUG 2003
Location: US, MO
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Wertheimer
The Koran burners are missing the point... Protest fanaticism, of any kind, not the faith. That is what we at war with, the crazy fanatics who use religion to justify their madness. We are supposed to be a country that respects all faiths. As a Christian, I find the burning upsetting as tolerance is supposed to be a Christian virtue.
But, that is only my point of view, I suppose...
A few points:
1) This "church" has 50 people. They don't reflect any audience wider than that.
2) This "church" is also run by extemists. Good luck making that point with them.
3) The western world, whether it chooses to acknowledge or not, is in a war with radical Islam. The principle of "know your enemy" is as ancient as civilization. The western world may choose to ignore the relationship between Islam and terrorism, but they damn well know why they are fighting, even if we don't.
4) And the western world may not be at war with a religion, but we may ask ourselves why there is so much sympathy for OBL in the Muslim world. Maybe most of Islam is against violence (I have no clue), but they do sympathize with it to some degree. Why is that? Why do Muslims hate Jews so much, even the so-called moderates? I personally think that labeling people like OBL as extremists is politically correct BS that fundamentally misunderstands the situation.
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 4:57pm |
AshturCenturion
Posts : 413
Joined: 26 APR 2005
Status : Offline | One thing here is that you're getting multiple strands of some extremely complex issues interweaved. The issues between the Islamic Nations and the West are not simply religious. They are religious, cultural, political and probably a few things that I'm forgetting.
What makes things even more compex is that those individual strands are closely tied together, and at times even connecting.
Why do many Muslims hate Israel? In fair part, because of what was done to the Palestinians. To with, the Colonialists (as many Jews came from Europe in the years leading up to 194 came to Palestine, and disposessed the rightful inhabitants. The Jews have then continued to assault the Palestinians, taking their territory (1967), and continuing a policy of economic strangulation. Note, this is NOT my personal beliefs, but this is the "line" that they've been taught and fed.
Is it true? From one perspective...yes. However, like many things, there are many perspectives, and I'm sure many people from Israel could dismantle that summary out of hand. (I could too for that matter)
However, what we're seeing there is a sense of building "Us vs Them" That the Palestinians are an example of the "Us" (Muslims) being attacked by the West. Once you have that basic paradigm, you can begin to see more "offenses" against Islam, and the culture of those nations. An attitude that the "west is out to get us" is born, an attitude which is only given fuel when Israel bombs Osijek, or when Holland represses appropriate Muslim dress.
What these things really get to though is... Humans are very, very tribalistic. We find multiple and countless ways to divide ourselves, and set up that "us vs them" mentality. Sadly, religion is a major one of them. However, it's far from the only one.
Look at our own country...what differences do we see? What "tribes" do people form to dismiss and demean one another?
Rich vs poor
Rural vs urban
North vs south
Democrat vs Republican
White vs Black vs Hispanic vs Asian (with any number of subgroups in all the above)
fit vs fat
I could go on with this for quite awhile. This tribalism is expressed in the "us vs them" mentality seen in our relations with the Middle East, whether it be seen as an assault upon their religion, their culture or whatever.
Now, don't take this as an apologia for their actions. Far from it. It's more meant as a reminder that these thigns are never simple... and what appears to be a "religious" issue often has many other aspects. People pay attention to the religious angle, declare "religion bad" and move on, and never consider that the situation is generally far more complex.
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 5:02pm |
TpekCommander
Posts : 2923
Joined: 29 NOV 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Azzurri
Tpek, do you roughly know the population of practicing Muslims?
Have you ever seen statistics indicating opinion among Muslims?
How many Muslims do you know that live in real Muslim communities and can openly speak their minds?
To answer some of my questions:
Some years ago there was a poll/census among Palestinians, checking what percentage believed they should practice Terrorism. 80% voted for terrorism. 80% is the vast majority. It is not some few radical extremists, some 'bad weeds'.
Terrorists don't exist in a vacuum. They are surrounded by people who shape their world and beliefs. With every terrorist bombing by a Islamist, there is the ones who give the money for the bombing, the ones who supply the bomb, the ones who drive him to his destination, the ones who give him the intel, the ones who convince him to the act, the ones who turned him into a fanatic and made it possible for the former group to do their job, and the ones who simply wish him good luck on his journey to bomb. For each person that bombs, there are countless people making sure it is possible and done.
Someone must have shaped the terrorist's beliefs into what they are in the first place.
Do you even bother watching all the news of protests Muslims around the world are carrying every once in a while, calling for death, bloodshed and destruction?
From all across Africa and Asia, from the westernmost regions to Pakistan and the like, Muslims make wild protests calling for death and burn flags of countries such as the U.S.
Are all Muslims fervent believers in violence&terrorism? obviously not. Is a very large percent? Yes indeed.
Those Muslims who disdain violence, tend to be the ones most distanced from the religion. As different people have different levels of 'piety' and adherence to their tenets of faith. Those more secularized will be much less likely to support violence, while those with greater 'piety' will be more likely to support violence.
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| 7 SEP 2010 at 5:11pm |
TpekCommander
Posts : 2923
Joined: 29 NOV 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ashtur
One thing here is that you're getting multiple strands of some extremely complex issues interweaved. The issues between the Islamic Nations and the West are not simply religious. They are religious, cultural, political and probably a few things that I'm forgetting.
What makes things even more compex is that those individual strands are closely tied together, and at times even connecting.
Why do many Muslims hate Israel? In fair part, because of what was done to the Palestinians. To with, the Colonialists (as many Jews came from Europe in the years leading up to 194 came to Palestine, and disposessed the rightful inhabitants. The Jews have then continued to assault the Palestinians, taking their territory (1967), and continuing a policy of economic strangulation. Note, this is NOT my personal beliefs, but this is the "line" that they've been taught and fed.
Is it true? From one perspective...yes. However, like many things, there are many perspectives, and I'm sure many people from Israel could dismantle that summary out of hand. (I could too for that matter)
However, what we're seeing there is a sense of building "Us vs Them" That the Palestinians are an example of the "Us" (Muslims) being attacked by the West. Once you have that basic paradigm, you can begin to see more "offenses" against Islam, and the culture of those nations. An attitude that the "west is out to get us" is born, an attitude which is only given fuel when Israel bombs Osijek, or when Holland represses appropriate Muslim dress.
What these things really get to though is... Humans are very, very tribalistic. We find multiple and countless ways to divide ourselves, and set up that "us vs them" mentality. Sadly, religion is a major one of them. However, it's far from the only one.
Look at our own country...what differences do we see? What "tribes" do people form to dismiss and demean one another?
Rich vs poor
Rural vs urban
North vs south
Democrat vs Republican
White vs Black vs Hispanic vs Asian (with any number of subgroups in all the above)
fit vs fat
I could go on with this for quite awhile. This tribalism is expressed in the "us vs them" mentality seen in our relations with the Middle East, whether it be seen as an assault upon their religion, their culture or whatever.
Now, don't take this as an apologia for their actions. Far from it. It's more meant as a reminder that these thigns are never simple... and what appears to be a "religious" issue often has many other aspects. People pay attention to the religious angle, declare "religion bad" and move on, and never consider that the situation is generally far more complex.
The Muslims hatred for Jews predates Israel. They have been butchering, committing genocide, persecuting and oppressing Jews since Muhammad himself.
Years before Israel was founded, the would be Palestinians invaded the land and conquered it. In the 1920's the Palestinians came in from other Arab nations, butchered Jews living in Israel and stole their homes.
Before that during the 19th century, Jews were persecuted, oppressed and murdered in Muslim nations that were rife with antisemitism. There were plenty of blood libels, hatred and what not.
Before that Muslim nations took great pleasures in terrorizing the Jewish populace of both their lands and Eastern Europe.
Before that the Muslim fanatics invaded the more secular Muslim nations in Spain, and butchered Jews there a plenty.
Before that the Muslims conquered and exterminated the Jewish Khazarian kingdom.
And before that during Muhammad, and a bit beyond they went around with massive genocide, killing untold numbers, exterminating whole nations of Jews, Christians and everyone who wasn't a Muslim.
And before that Muhammad took great hatred of the Jews, after the Jews of Arabia refused to acknowledge him as the greatest prophet of all time and follow him blindly, and even had the audacity to mock the idea.
Muslim nowadays, when pondering actions towards Jews, do not consider modern times as much as they consider the actions of Muhammad himself.
It is without surprise that they often chant and call for the actions of Muhammad, citing many of the butcheries he committed.
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