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| 8 SEP 2010 at 9:45am |
TpekCommander
Posts : 2923
Joined: 29 NOV 2009
Status : Offline | ^What do you mean 'just a book'? Books are awesome things. Far more important than....gasp....video games. And look what ruckus comes up whenever any new video game gets released.
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 10:57am |
Otis CampbellCenturion
Posts : 92
Joined: 2 MAY 2010
Status : Online | On the lighter side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdtFk_V6A4M
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 11:01am |
Azzurri
Banned for 15397 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | Nice voice-over on the vid, Otis...your momma would be proud.
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 11:10am |
Otis CampbellCenturion
Posts : 92
Joined: 2 MAY 2010
Status : Online | Would that were my creation...i would sell the DVD
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 11:34am |
UbercatCommander
Posts : 1184
Joined: 1 DEC 2008
Location: US, Near Allentown, PA
Status : Offline | Good video Otis. It definitely does a great job mocking intolerance.
I'm torn though regarding tolerance for Islam, as opposed to other religions. The worldwide riots by Muslims every time they don't get their way in some little thing, or someone says something mean or makes a cartoon, strongly implies to me that Islam is the most intolerant religion around.
Tolerance of intolerance seems pretty self destructive in a way. By example, the Netherlands is a very tolerant country that seem to have all sorts of problems with its Muslim immigrant population. Many of them want to destroy the very freedoms that, ironically, protect their own right to practice their religion! Things like murdering film makers and gays, raping non Muslim --white-- Dutch girls, etc.
What do you do in that situation? Left to me, I'd deport them to the waste lands they came from, but many seem to actively support their rights, even to the degree of enabling them to harm the rights of others. I'm pretty liberal, but there does seem to be a very self destructive aspect to some extreme liberalism. (Not to downplay the self destructive aspect(s) of extreme conservatism.)
edit: Sorry for the bad word.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.”
-William H. Gascoyne
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 11:38am |
GusingtonGeneral
Posts : 18089
Joined: 16 AUG 2004
Location: US, USMA
Status : Offline | ^Please watch the potty mouth.
I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon.
- Rayfer
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 11:52am |
Otis CampbellCenturion
Posts : 92
Joined: 2 MAY 2010
Status : Online | For me there is no question, all religions are the same in the end. Some are more agreeable, some have grown and reformed, some do actual good.
If i had the power i would ban religion. Its too easy for a "spiritual leader" to grab the reins of power and shape civilization to their ends. Islam waits for the 12th iman to return; Iran seeks to help that process along. On our side we have the fundamentalists that cant wait for armageddon to happen so their savior will return.
Meanwhile some are stuck in the middle trying to say..."hey what about reason, couldnt we make this world a really nice place for everyone?". Count me in the middle with the quiet ones.
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 12:10pm |
UbercatCommander
Posts : 1184
Joined: 1 DEC 2008
Location: US, Near Allentown, PA
Status : Offline | I don't think banning would help. Persecution is a great way to help religions grow. People get all uppity when told they can't do something. Suddenly they have something to prove and the excitement of being the underdog.
Education would be the key, I think. There aren't enough critical thinking skills taught to children. It's not surprising that magical thinking is so prevalent in America today when you consider that educated people are despised as being "elitist." When politicians can actually get more votes by being/playing dumb, then you know your society is in big trouble.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.”
-William H. Gascoyne
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 12:27pm |
AshturCenturion
Posts : 413
Joined: 26 APR 2005
Status : Offline | Finding a way to remove all religions from the board (be it by banning, or "education" or whatever), would not improve the situation of the world one little bit.
Certainly religion has been at the core of many conflicts over the years (though, less than many believe, as there is often few real religious aspects to "religious conflicts" other than giving a label to use for the other group... see, The Troubles).
However, humanity's tribalistic nature will not change one whit by getting rid of religion. The expression and cause for it may shift, but the end result will be the same.
Indeed, we see that very tribalism in effect in this thread. The religious vs the anti-religious.
[FYI, for those who do not know. I am a professional Church Worker, so feel free to put that into your understanding of my views and biases]
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 12:45pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15397 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ashtur
Finding a way to remove all religions from the board (be it by banning, or "education" or whatever), would not improve the situation of the world one little bit.
Certainly religion has been at the core of many conflicts over the years (though, less than many believe, as there is often few real religious aspects to "religious conflicts" other than giving a label to use for the other group... see, The Troubles).
However, humanity's tribalistic nature will not change one whit by getting rid of religion. The expression and cause for it may shift, but the end result will be the same.
Indeed, we see that very tribalism in effect in this thread. The religious vs the anti-religious.
[FYI, for those who do not know. I am a professional Church Worker, so feel free to put that into your understanding of my views and biases]
Certainly you are on the right path, but I would take it a step further by transcending the very nature of tribalism and replacing it with the most common way that we communicate (or not) with one another.
Language.
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 12:53pm |
Otis CampbellCenturion
Posts : 92
Joined: 2 MAY 2010
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ashtur
Finding a way to remove all religions from the board (be it by banning, or "education" or whatever), would not improve the situation of the world one little bit.
Certainly religion has been at the core of many conflicts over the years (though, less than many believe, as there is often few real religious aspects to "religious conflicts" other than giving a label to use for the other group... see, The Troubles).
However, humanity's tribalistic nature will not change one whit by getting rid of religion. The expression and cause for it may shift, but the end result will be the same.
Indeed, we see that very tribalism in effect in this thread. The religious vs the anti-religious.
[FYI, for those who do not know. I am a professional Church Worker, so feel free to put that into your understanding of my views and biases]
I respect your devotion to your beliefs. But if I allow for your religion, I have to allow for all religions including those that send children to die in someones name. Hence the gourdian knot of religion and its power to make people die in its name.
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 12:59pm |
AshturCenturion
Posts : 413
Joined: 26 APR 2005
Status : Offline | Well, I think that it can go even beyond language. People find many reasons to dislike and distrust one another. If we just look at our own nation, we can see the divides (as I said before). Now, those divides don't end up creating violence in the US near as often as they do in other places (though, we can still recall the Murrah building, among other things), it does remind us of that fact.
Westerners tend to look at the culture in Islamic lands with horror... and frankly rightly so. The recent news stories about the woman who they were going to execute, the discussions of Afghan men and their kept boys from another thread here recently, the general place of women in their culture... the list can go on and on.
Yet, what that does is it creates a defensiveness. "They're trying to destroy our culture!" Or is it religion? That's one of the complex issues. The religion of Islam is so tightly wound into the culture of that part of the world, that it's nearly impossible to take those strands apart.
Now, again, this is not an apologia for Islam or the practices of that culture. Frankly, the world would be better if they'd go ahead and join the 20th Century (much less the 21st...)
Further, while I may have given the impression that I think we should "kowtow" to their sensitivities... I actually don't. I'm the sort who thinks we need to understand a situation before we dive into it. If we need to step on their toes (or stamp on their feet), so be it, I just think we're better served knowing that going in, instead of being shocked when someone starts screaming about a broken toe...
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 1:15pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15397 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | I still would argue that language is the very thing that defines each of our own reality and the impetus of most, if not all, disputes amongst diverse cultures of differing beliefs.
Obviously, language is a conceptual tool—a code of visual/auditory symbols that denote concepts.
To a person who understands the function of language, it makes no difference what sounds are chosen to name things, provided these sounds refer to clearly defined aspects of reality, in this case, their own reality.
I would agree that it is not for their language that the tribalists are fighting: they are fighting to protect their level of awareness, their mental passivity, their obedience to the tribe, and their desire to ignore the existence of outsiders.
This "defensiveness" is an extension of the diversity of language and the primordial barriers it naturally creates.
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 3:25pm |
lancerunolfssonCenturion
Posts : 639
Joined: 7 JUL 2007
Location: US
Status : Offline | I still would argue that language is the very thing that defines each of our own reality and the impetus of most, if not all, disputes amongst diverse cultures of differing beliefs.
I have long thought this to be a major truth.
Examples:
Places where English is the dominant language are usually pretty good.
Places where Spanish is the dominant language are usually, oh well, decide for yourself.
Medford Oregon Gamer Group + Free Miniature Rules and a Print and Play Board game.
[link=http://lancerunolfsson.googlepages.com/home]http://lancerunolfsson.googlepages.com/home[/link]
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 3:30pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15397 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | ^So I take it Spanish is your native language, huh Mr. T?
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 4:14pm |
ActionJackColonel
Posts : 7881
Joined: 19 SEP 2005
Status : Offline | Certainly religion has been at the core of many conflicts over the years ...
I think religion has been a mask for the underlying cause of conflicts which are usually economic in nature which is also rooted in who will be dominant.
"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 4:20pm |
broncepulidoCenturion
Posts : 178
Joined: 15 MAR 2004
Status : Offline | A link to a article with some historical and basic considerations about the language conformation of mind and perception:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
"The habits of mind that our culture has instilled in us from infancy shape our orientation to the world and our emotional responses to the objects we encounter, and their consequences probably go far beyond what has been experimentally demonstrated so far; they may also have a marked impact on our beliefs, values and ideologies. We may not know as yet how to measure these consequences directly or how to assess their contribution to cultural or political misunderstandings. "
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 4:28pm |
Azzurri
Banned for 15397 days
Posts : 9755
Joined: 24 NOV 2009
Location: 0, Kentucky
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By broncepulido
A link to a article with some historical and basic considerations about the language conformation of mind and perception:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
"The habits of mind that our culture has instilled in us from infancy shape our orientation to the world and our emotional responses to the objects we encounter, and their consequences probably go far beyond what has been experimentally demonstrated so far; they may also have a marked impact on our beliefs, values and ideologies. We may not know as yet how to measure these consequences directly or how to assess their contribution to cultural or political misunderstandings. "
Fantastic article!
Thank you for pointing it out, Broncepulido.
It is better to die by a swords quick thrust than to be impaled for a lifetime upon the sharp tongue of a woman.-Grimjack
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| 8 SEP 2010 at 4:53pm |
Dale HCommander
Posts : 1217
Joined: 25 AUG 2004
Location: US, Oregon
Status : Offline | I can't remember having more fun lurking than I did with this thread.
Speaking of religion & miracles I am sure that staying out of R&P this long has got to be one.
The YouTube video has got to win an Oscar! Thanks, Otis Campbell. You made my day.
Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana
I'd rather be right than be president. Henry Clay
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| 9 SEP 2010 at 4:34am |
paweljCommander
Posts : 2866
Joined: 17 SEP 2003
Location: UK, London
Status : Offline | Whatever happened to freedom of expression? I feel really discusted by the cowardly response of the western so-called leaders. The pastor may be a total wackjob, but he is not hurting anyone physically.
"...One Nation, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All."
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| 9 SEP 2010 at 5:05am |
KeunertCommander
Posts : 2364
Joined: 22 MAR 2006
Status : Offline | well he may is hurting some of the us boys missions and lifes on muslim ground.
I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect. Oscar Wilde
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| 9 SEP 2010 at 6:24am |
paweljCommander
Posts : 2866
Joined: 17 SEP 2003
Location: UK, London
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Keunert
well he may is hurting some of the us boys missions and lifes on muslim ground.
No, he is not. Any violence will be caused by the enemies, and it is not even sure if it would be at all connected to event. All those reacting to this are no friends of our to begin with. This will be an extention of so-called "honour" killings, which must never be acceptable.
"...One Nation, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All."
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| 9 SEP 2010 at 6:25am |
gocrowsCenturion
Posts : 195
Joined: 23 APR 2008
Status : Offline | In Australia religious vilification of others is a crime, as it targets individuals because of their beliefs. should be. Noone has the right to abuse or threaten others in the name of "free speech", in my opinion.
It always amuses me that people quote religious works such as the Koran or the Bible to justify their prejudices. If you are clever, both books have ample examples of acts of barbarism/terrorism, or any other agendas one seeks to push.
As for book burning, how does that famous quote go..... "where one burns books, eventually one burns people"-lessons of history are hard-learned. Lest we forget.
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| 9 SEP 2010 at 6:44am |
paweljCommander
Posts : 2866
Joined: 17 SEP 2003
Location: UK, London
Status : Offline | As for book burning, how does that famous quote go..... "where one burns books, eventually one burns people"-lessons of history are hard-learned. Lest we forget.
It would be a problem if he was going around seizing other people's books and from public libraries. He's burning his own books as a statement. That's the difference.
BTW, where is ACLU? Oh, I remember, busy defending terrorists.
"...One Nation, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All."
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