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Topic: Does Panzer Campaigns have lousy 2D graphics?
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All Forums : [PUBLISHERS, DEVELOPERS & DESIGNERS] : [GAME PUBLISHERS, DEVELOPERS & DESIGNERS] : HPS Simulations / John Tiller Software : [GAME SERIES] : Panzer Campaigns > Does Panzer Campaigns have lousy 2D graphics?
| 27 SEP 2010 at 7:23pm | |
PhilippeCommander  Posts : 1026 Joined: 14 DEC 2008 Status : Offline | There's been some discussion in a couple of threads suggesting that Panzer Campaigns has lousy 2D graphics.
I'm posting these screenshots to let people decide for themselves.
Here are four sets of screenshots of four maps from Panzer Campaigns Smolensk with different mods installed.
They show Germans in zoomed-out mode, Russians in zoomed out mode, Russians in zoomed-in mode, and Germans in zoomed-in mode, and all use the same sequence of mods for each map.
The hexgrid and elevation contours have been turned off in all of the screenshots.
The Dvina set (Germans, zoomed-out):
HPS plain vanilla (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2036/comp01.jpg[/image]
HPS plain vanilla (above)
HPS + Volcano Man (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4052/comp02.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6670/comp03.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9783/comp04.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (above)
The Vitebsk set (Russians, zoomed-out):
HPS plain vanilla (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8122/comp05.jpg[/image]
HPS plain vanilla (above)
HPS + Volcano Man (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/686/comp06.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7781/comp07.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2108/comp08.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (above)
The first Orsha set (Russians, zoomed-in):
HPS plain vanilla (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9504/comp09.jpg[/image]
HPS plain vanilla (above)
HPS + Volcano Man (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1976/comp10.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4439/comp11.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6246/comp12.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (above)
The second Orsha set (Germans, zoomed-in):
HPS plain vanilla (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6403/comp13.jpg[/image]
HPS plain vanilla (above)
HPS + Volcano Man (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/5093/comp14.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6729/comp15.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison (above)
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (below):
[image]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3604/comp16.jpg[/image]
HPS + Volcano Man + Jison + Philippe (above)
The HPS website can be found here:
http://www.hpssims.com/
Volcano Man's mod site can be found here:
http://www.volcanomods.com/
Jison's Mapmod site can be found here:
http://www.hist-sdc.com/MapMod/index.htm
Philippe's mods can be found here:
http://tfe4.wordpress.com/graphics-and-sound-mods/panzer-campaigns-and-other-hps-titles/
Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves.
History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.
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| 28 SEP 2010 at 7:40am | |
PhilippeCommanderPosts : 1026 Joined: 14 DEC 2008 Status : Offline | The Wargamer resizes large screenshots, so for larger and clearer pictures of some of these you might want to take a look at this thread at GameSquad forums:
http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?95618-What-the-different-mods-are-supposed-to-look-like&p=1316293#post1316293
Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves.
History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.
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| 28 SEP 2010 at 10:37am | |
RobearCenturion  Posts : 612 Joined: 2 OCT 2005 Status : Offline | And yet there are still only two levels of zoom. This means that playing at 1920x1080 (or 1200, for that matter) yields a barely readable game at the highest level of zoom. I love these games as games, but would it kill them to do another level of zoom to accommodate modern screens, so that those of us who are limited in visual acuity could play more easily on a modern LCD? (Running at lower resolutions introduces blurring with LCDs, unless the aspect ratio is directly equivalent to the native, unlike what CRTs can do.)
That and the carpal tunnel interface both could use some refreshing. I think it's too easy to use "it's the gameplay that matters" as an excuse not to invest in an engine or interface upgrade; is once a decade too much to ask? Put another way, there are maybe a dozen or more HPS games I have not bought because the eye and wrist strain are not worth the interest I have in the topics. Surely I'm not the only one?
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 5:56pm | |
cmurphyCenturion Posts : 529 Joined: 25 JUL 2010 Location: US, Boston Status : Offline | Toshiba Laptop.. 17.3 inch display.. 1600 x 900
[image]http://www.nordlandamps.com/zoomedout.jpg[/image]
Full size here http://www.nordlandamps.com/zoomedout.jpg ...
I must just need a bigger monitor :-(
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 6:15pm | |
PhilippeCommanderPosts : 1026 Joined: 14 DEC 2008 Status : Offline | I'm a bit out of my depth here, but I suspect that what you're seeing is a combination of a monitor that's a little on the small side with a resolution that may be a bit too high.
I'm using an old 19" desktop monitor, old in the sense that the monitor is relatively square, whereas yours seems to be one of those new wide ones.
Maybe if you try cranking down your screen resolution to something closer to 800x600 (I'm actually 1152x864, and it's barely comfortable).
Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves.
History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 6:28pm | |
cmurphyCenturionPosts : 529 Joined: 25 JUL 2010 Location: US, Boston Status : Offline | I did try changing the resolution.. but then the unit side card get's too big.. probably my display, it is widescreen.. I'll have to look on my gaming computer sometime down cellar, that's a 22 inch screen (I don't usually play strategy games on that one.. enjoy the laptop in the living room)...
Hey HPS with the Mods, is a lot better than SSG.. I mean those look pretty, but really tough on the eyes, way too small...
too bad we couldn't get big like Decisive Campaigns... price to pay with getting old.. eyes get worse..
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 6:54pm | |
UbercatCommander Posts : 1184 Joined: 1 DEC 2008 Location: US, Near Allentown, PA Status : Offline | I know it won't help everyone, but if you happen to have two monitors, I got good mileage out of using the Windows magnifier. Wherever I scrolled the mouse on the map, I had a good looking, enlarged picture that I set on the second monitor for examining local situations.
For Windows 7 it's..
Start > Accessories > Ease of Access > Magnifier
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.” |
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 8:34pm | |
trauth116Centurion Posts : 319 Joined: 24 MAY 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Originally Posted By cmurphyPart of the issue seems to be playing it in 2D zoom out mode. Webmaster: [link]http://hist-sdc.com[/link] & [link]http://spwgame.com[/link] |
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 8:46pm | |
cmurphyCenturionPosts : 529 Joined: 25 JUL 2010 Location: US, Boston Status : Offline | Originally Posted By trauth116I don't play in 2D zoom out mode, I was commenting on how it doesn't look too bad on Philippe's screen shots... If mine looked that good, I would use it from time to time to see more of the Battlefield I usually play in 2D zoom in mode, like most folks.. |
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 8:53pm | |
PhilippeCommanderPosts : 1026 Joined: 14 DEC 2008 Status : Offline | It's not entirely clear because this discussion is jumping threads, but what's really being considered is how to make the zoom-out mode workable.
My mods were part of the solution, but the problem, increasingly, is becoming a technological one.
I really hope that HPS takes a page from AGEOD's book and comes up with a configuration program to make the game suitable to the screen dimensions and resolution of the person playing, rather than just slavishly imitating the Windows configuration. What's needed is an override that will show the playing area in some variation of 800x600.
If not, in a year or two people will stop playing because the units will simply have become too hard to see (assuming that monitors and resolutions will keep getting bigger).
Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves.
History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 9:01pm | |
skoopCenturion Posts : 227 Joined: 27 MAY 2005 Status : Offline | ^ Philippe,
What does your mod add compared to the HPS+Volcano+Jison version ?
Visually it doesn't seem like much from the Screens above. |
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| 27 OCT 2010 at 9:59pm | |
PhilippeCommanderPosts : 1026 Joined: 14 DEC 2008 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By skoopYou can't see much of anything from the screens above. Go over to the equivalent of this thread at GameSquad Forums and take a careful, closer look. The thread can be found at http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?95618-What-the-different-mods-are-supposed-to-look-like If your monitor shape and resolution doesn't distort things beyond recognition, you'll get a zoomed-out 2D map that can actually be played on. Several people have already commented on this in other threads. The other mods have done nothing with the zoomed-out map, which, in North Africa, can leave you looking at green sand. On the zoomed-in 2D map you won't be forced to stare at a hexgrid all of the time: you can turn it on and off at will, as the game designers intended. There's clearer differentiation between the assorted types of vegetation cover. My bocage has been very well received, but I have distinctive vineyards and brush as well. My forests are thicker, and aren't indistinguishable from my light tree cover when a road runs through them. My buildings aren't roofed in green plastic, regardless of geographical region. I went to considerable pains to try to figure out what the dominant roofing colors were for each particular region during this period (I even consulted Yale's History Department). My roofs are not only more realistic, they're also nicer to look at. The underlying parchement textured terrain (used with the zoomed in and zoomed out maps) is different from anything anyone has done before. The effect is subtle, an admittedly alien concept here, but it leaves nine out of ten art students drooling with envy. My unit counters are, for the most part, in uniform colors. The best way to see what this means is to actually click on one and compare the color of the counter to the color of the image's clothing. The one big howling exception is that I put the SS into Castle Wolfenstein black (instead of Pearl Grey) and the Wehrmacht into wargame grey instead of various shades of feldgrau. The other big exception was the Romanians: I had to lighten their uniforms because they were too close to Soviet brown. My victory flags are stronger and my nationality symbols more convincing. They're period, and none of them were invented by wargamers. Compare my Italian flag to the others that are in use and you'll see what I'm talking about. (And yes, I'm an amateur vexillologist and have game design credits for artwork at Paradox and Battlefront for flags, among other things). If you look at an engineering unit in one of the other mods you're very likely to see an engineering symbol overlapping a bridging symbol overlapping the nationality indicator (if it isn't covered up by a vehicle in the picture). That kind of thing never happens in my mods. Each type of symbol or indicator has its assigned spot on the image box, and always shows up there an nowhere else. So there's never a jumble of symbols. I take great pains to move images of men, horses, and vehicles around to minimze or avoid collisions. I haven't ignored the 3D side of things. I've provided repainted units, bases, and a new kind of victory symbol for the 3D terrain. This is only a start, but I don't intend to finish the 3D portion until I've finished the 2D side of things. People don't look at the 3D terrain because it's generally too ugly to look at, but I'm chipping away at that. And sometimes you can't really understand the lay of the land from just looking at the 2D map (but then some people don't know what they should be looking at, or even what they're looking at when they actually see it). I'm not out to mod the unit images if I don't have to but I don't just use the images that are handed to me in the image box. My mods are far too groggy for that. I do the dunkelgrau/dunkelgelb switch in early 1943. I usually keep winter camo off of summer troops and vice versa. If I replace an image, it's usually because it need to be replaced by something more authentic to unit or period. When something strikes me as wrong I'll spend a lot of time researching what the image should be, and if I can find something that's a closer fit, I'll use it. The Normandy mod makes a few switches to come up with stronger images, but the other mods generally avoid switching unless there's something wrong with the one in use.
Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves.
History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.
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| 28 OCT 2010 at 3:13am | |
JisonCenturionPosts : 56 Joined: 31 JAN 2008 Status : Offline | I must say it feels rather weird to almost daily stumble upon so much of my own work in Philippes mods and threads, since I have never ever been asked for permission to use my work in this manner. Ah well, what can you do?
Anyway, if you guys are interested, you can have a better look at my mods over here:
[link]http://www.hist-sdc.com/MapMod/index.htm[/link]
Jison |
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| 28 OCT 2010 at 3:22am | |
trauth116CenturionPosts : 319 Joined: 24 MAY 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Originally Posted By cmurphyMr Murphy, Sir- I owe you an apology- as I missed that the issue that you are having is with the BlankboxV.bmp .... if the res you quoted is your maximum available res- then there isn't anything you are going to be able to do to fix that file -if the edit of that image did not resize it. Jison's original image has a vertical size of 1024 pixels- however since your monitor is only using 900 vertical pixels - it is alway going to be losing out on the extra 124 pixels. When using Jison's unmodified image -it won't be much of an issue -as it is all blank space. . . which isn't the case in this instance. If you are not particular about where your Hex Info Area shows up, if you use top or bottom of your screen it should work (as Jison's original horizontal image is 1280 pixels wide -- which is less than your 1600 pixels on your res). To do this you can go to: Settings (on the menu at the top of your screen) -> Hex Info Area -> Top (or Bottom). Would do it. I'd say though, that with this situation, there was nothing that you could have done to have avoided it. Webmaster: [link]http://hist-sdc.com[/link] & [link]http://spwgame.com[/link] |
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| 28 OCT 2010 at 3:31am | |
Checkmate King 2Centurion Posts : 453 Joined: 27 OCT 2005 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JisonAll I can say to that Jison, is that you sure do have alot of class and my respect! [sm=icon_respect.gif] |
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| 28 OCT 2010 at 3:34am | |
HexagonCenturionPosts : 381 Joined: 22 JUN 2007 Status : Offline | I like HPS PzC serie (and others) BUT art isnt the best part of the HPS games, for example PzC is a 10 years old serie (a little more, i think that Smolensk is a 1999 game) and now with new games in the market looks old and obsolete in some parts (after 10 years units dont have a simple value to prevent automatic isolated low ammo feature... maybe someday... and a change in engine to made fire actions faster in every shoot you can lose 2-3 seconds waiting) of course using mods HPS games look is much better but i talk about basic game, of course some games in their first release have a very ugly look (nap titles are even worst in portrait images) but now are a little better but they have 10 years to do this and they are using same images in all games (if is possible).
Comparing with for example DC:Blitkrieg, PzC basic art looks old, very old, this is the true, of course with France14 they try to use the good job of modders (thanks Jison for your hard work)... in next releases is interesting see what are they going to do because for example sealion have the same 2D map art as Smolenks 10 years ago when using mods this change... i know, the good thing is HPS games is the OOB... well, i buy a full game with OOB, art and scens and want see queality in all parts of the game, i am a wargame player and dont search super 3D graphics but at least whant see some evolution and good 2D images.
Better dont enter on 3D art hehehe.
Well, i change my monitor some months ago from a 19 to a 22 and the lose of quality is great.
PD: now we can see a new serie called PzB, a tactical game (yes, tactical, scale is tactical, bigger than squad level but...) i expect see some better than the use PzC art in the serie like they do on REN with art map and counter art (for me basic counter symbols on Nap/EAW/REN are the worst thing in the world, thanks to the Volcanoman mod they look much better and other modders).
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| 28 OCT 2010 at 12:47pm | |
PhilippeCommanderPosts : 1026 Joined: 14 DEC 2008 Status : Offline | Originally Posted By JisonI'm really sorry you feel that way. If I were appropriating your material wholesale and packaging it as part of my own mod I would agree with you. But I'm not doing that. I've never made any bones about the fact that my maps imitate your style. I have mentioned this in many threads on several different websites. Borrowed content requires permission. Style does not. My maps use your graphic style but my aesthetic. I know that you don't like my aesthetic because you've said as much in the past. Allow me to invite you to download and actually examine the contents of one of my mods. I'll be happy to go over it with you pixel by pixel at maximum magnification. Why don't we start with one of the North Africa mods, the Alamein mod, for example? You may not like what you see, but you won't recognize very much of it either. And when you do recognize something what you'll be recognizing is what influenced me. The final look of one of my mods has always contained some Jison material. But it's not supposed to be getting there from my mod: it's supposed to be flowing through from a previous installation of your mod. My mods are designed to be installed on top of your mods, and they don't overwrite everything you've done. That's one of the reasons the style is the same. Your mods are designed to be installed on top of Volcano Man's mods, and they don't overwrite everything he's done either. Having said that, there aren't a whole lot of bitmaps from your mods that aren't getting overwritten at this point, and what they're getting overwritten by isn't supposed to be from your mods (though it will often seem that way to the casual observer). Even when parts of the bitmaps are similar, those parts usually come from the HPS 1914 release, which may have been based on your work originally but is, at the end of the day, the product of the HPS art department (and that, I'm guessing, is why you felt your 1914 mod had to rework many of the HPS bitmaps -- you didn't like them). I'm certainly not going to ask HPS for permission to mod their bitmaps (though I'd be surprised if they didn't give it to me). To put it another way, once their copyright is on something it's theirs, and for modding purposes it's public domain, as ironic as that might be from a legal perspective. But the chain of events behind how one particular pixel on a bitmap got moved and repainted and by whom starts getting absurdly murky after a while. If someone ever decides to mod the Graphical Unit Icons in the 1914 game I shouldn't expect them to ask my permission, even though much of the work that appears there on the latest patch is mine (apart from the WWI tanks, which are Volcano Man's). Those icons are part of the patch, and the patch belongs to HPS. I haven't looked at the actual terrain textures in the Panzer Campaigns mods in a while, so if you think there's something specific in there that shouldn't be there please let me know about it and I'll take a look and see if it really belongs. I make a lot of revisions to things and sometimes forget to include my new textures in the updates. The earliest versions of my mods had a fairly high unmodified Jison content that was flowing through from the underlying Mapmod installation, but each new version replaced more and more of the Mapmod material, so that at this point we shouldn't be talking about a lot besides the Phasebox (which is too much fun to overwrite). Every single one of my announcements for a new mod release has always contained an explicit nod to your accomplishments. The acknowlegement gets placed between the screenshots and the list of general instructions for how to install my mod. And there's something similar in the readme files that come with each mod. And I've also been a lot more aggressive about publicizing your site's web address than you have.
Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves.
History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.
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| 29 OCT 2010 at 3:07am | |
JisonCenturionPosts : 56 Joined: 31 JAN 2008 Status : Offline | Okay, I am going to try the mature angle on this...
You try very hard to justify what you do, so hard in fact, that you dont mind bending on the truth a little. MapMod has been around for a while now, and is fairly well known in the community, so I dont think you fool anyone with your argument that you are only 'imitating my style' and therefore dont need my permission.
It is a pitty really, because it is easy to see a passion for modding in you - you desperately want a mod you can call your own. I applaud you for that, it is good to have this as a driving force. But it still doesnt make it right to hijack somebody elses mod like you did with Ezjax's napoleonic mod before and are doing with my mod now.
I guess when it really comes down to it this is a matter, not so much between you and me, but between you and your conscience. I'm looking forward to the day when you release a mod that is truly your own - that day you will have my respect because that would be the day you cease to be a free rider.
I have nothing further to say on this matter, so you dont need to bother with an answer. Thanks.
Jison
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| 29 OCT 2010 at 10:18am | |
gabeegCenturion Posts : 317 Joined: 20 JAN 2010 Location: US, California Status : Offline | As an outside spectator, I have always thought philippe was pretty clear that his modding was an additional layer/alteration on yours and volcano mans mods. Maybe there is some other history here but it does not seem like it should be an issue. I dont think there is anyone that does not realize that these are an asthetic tweak on your excellent work. I hate to see hard feelings among modders...especially over some thing minor or a misunderstanding.
Maybe it is better just to move on. Hope both of you guys keep up your contributions! gabeeg |
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| 29 OCT 2010 at 2:58pm | |
cmurphyCenturionPosts : 529 Joined: 25 JUL 2010 Location: US, Boston Status : Offline | Originally Posted By gabeegI agree, the modders are who make this game that much more enjoyable!.. and Jison, your the one that made the 2D mode a work of art (thing of beauty)!!! |
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| 29 OCT 2010 at 4:49pm | |
UbercatCommanderPosts : 1184 Joined: 1 DEC 2008 Location: US, Near Allentown, PA Status : Offline | Am I getting this right? I'm not in the know, so I'm in no position to take sides, but this seems kind of screwy. Phillipe is on the ****list for layering his mods over Jisons mods, which are layered over someone elses mods, which are layered over someone elses? How deep is mod layering allowed to go before the top layerer is plagiarizing? If I were inclined to take up modding (no time for it), this would make me steer clear.
Anyhow, Jisons mod was the first I ever tried when I started playing Smolensk '41, and I'm very grateful for the vast improvement he made available over the vanilla graphics. I'm also grateful to Phillipe, however, for finally getting rid of that Luftwaffe blau color that plagues the German units. Feldgrau is much more appropriate, and that other should be reserved for Luftwaffe ground units! If I start playing PzC again, I'll probably D/L Phillipes' mod just for that.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.” |
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| 30 OCT 2010 at 3:42am | |
JisonCenturionPosts : 56 Joined: 31 JAN 2008 Status : Offline | Just for the record - nobody is on anybody's ****list for layering mods above another mod. Modders do that all the time, it is normal procedure.
Since he was talking directly to me I gave him a direct answer - it wasn't an attempt to clarify anything to the public. Sorry for the confusion, but the details probably dont belong here...
Jison |
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| 30 OCT 2010 at 7:43am | |
UbercatCommanderPosts : 1184 Joined: 1 DEC 2008 Location: US, Near Allentown, PA Status : Offline | Deleted. NM
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.” |
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| 6 NOV 2010 at 5:55pm | |
trauth116CenturionPosts : 319 Joined: 24 MAY 2007 Location: AU Status : Offline | Originally Posted By HexagonTo be more fair, it bears noting that the game cited actually bears a closer resemblance to the scale used in the Total War in Europe series than it does a series which uses 1 km per hex. In effect I don't think the comparison is particularly valid between PzC and that DC thing. I also ought to mention that based upon the hex shape in the screen shots -it sure looks like it has Norm Koger's TOAW hex shape stamped all over it - so I am not at all sure that this isn't something that is borrowing from that game's engine, and doesn't really represent that much of an improvement apart from using a more powerful image editing software suite ... just an educated guess. Webmaster: [link]http://hist-sdc.com[/link] & [link]http://spwgame.com[/link] |
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| 9 NOV 2010 at 4:02am | |
pvthudson01Centurion Posts : 64 Joined: 14 OCT 2003 Status : Online | I dont play in 2D mode it is ugly. I play in 3D mode
Visit my blog
[link]http://hudshideout.com/blog/[/link]
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