| 22 DEC 2010 at 5:25pm |
RobearCenturion
Posts : 612
Joined: 2 OCT 2005
Status : Offline | Fair enough. Note that I didn't claim that Jefferson didn't have to deal with the others, or that he was the sole author. I was trying to provide some of the *other* context to contrast with yours. I simply weigh them differently against each other. :-)
|
| 22 DEC 2010 at 5:29pm |
RobearCenturion
Posts : 612
Joined: 2 OCT 2005
Status : Offline |
Obviously that document is not the end all/ be all on what was the common and prevailing thought about religion or Christianity in the era so again you push for an argument for no reason and you weaken your position in the process with such tactics. You make a claim and if your entire support rests only on what is in the Declaration of Independence then you betray a limited knowledge base that suggests you really don't know. I've deferred so why weaken your position?
Well, the Declaration was the document under discussion, so I used that. I don't push for an argument "for no reason"; I was interested in seeing whether you'd accept a well-reasoned one, since you expressed a desire to see one. Any assumption that that is the only evidence available is yours; I was simply responding to your frustration.
Limited knowledge base? Seriously, why the snark? Did you mistake me for Montfort? Or is insult just another tool in the shed? Seems unnecessary to me.
|
| 22 DEC 2010 at 6:11pm |
UbercatCommander
Posts : 1184
Joined: 1 DEC 2008
Location: US, Near Allentown, PA
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By ActionJack
F*** NAMBLA. Thousands or millions of social workers and survivors of childhood abuse say differently. Why would you try to give NAMBLAs claims equal weight, unless you're *very poorly* trying to make some point.
I don't and can say why. You don't seem sufficiently able to do likewise. That's my poorly expressed point.
You don't give NAMBLA equal weight? Why not? Because you follow a god that had no problem handing women and young girls over to be raped and enslaved by the same men that had just murdered their menfolk in cold blood? You might as well, if you base your morality on the bible. Again, What is this steady moral compass you're following, ActionJack? How do you treat your own slaves? I imagine that you avoid shrimp like the plague, right?
Could I get some straight answers to the preceding paragraph, please? Your ignoring the heinous evils in the bible does not aid your case in any form. Rather, it indicates that you have no answer that would make sense.
And I most certainly CAN state my case. I've made it abundantly clear that the difference is in who is hurt. We're still waiting to hear your case in support of biblical evil morality.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.”
-William H. Gascoyne
|
| 22 DEC 2010 at 6:18pm |
GusingtonGeneral
Posts : 18089
Joined: 16 AUG 2004
Location: US, USMA
Status : Offline | Let's try to steer this back more towards Don't Ask Don't Tell and less towards morality, right/wrong, etc.
I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon.
- Rayfer
|
| 22 DEC 2010 at 8:46pm |
ÞórgrímrCenturion
Posts : 321
Joined: 9 JAN 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By son_of_montfort
SNIP - if people want to use biblical backing to take an anti-gay stance, they better darn well be following Kosher law. And did you know that, in Leviticus, you also have rules against menstruating women going to worship (and they have to have a ritual purification)? You don't see any advocacy groups about that!
SoM, if you are going to be throwing out accusations you best be sure you know what you are talking about. The Book of Leviticus in a part of the Torah, not the Christian Bible.
Cheers, Þórgrímr
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
|
| 22 DEC 2010 at 8:51pm |
gocrowsCenturion
Posts : 196
Joined: 23 APR 2008
Status : Offline | Is it just me, or is this thread no longer about the policy, but is now dealing with people's objections to homosexuality on religious grounds? If so, there is no resolution. People who are religious cannot be swayed from the beliefs of their individual faiths, because it is just that; a faith.
That being the case, the only reason for this thread to continue is as a forum for people to slag each other's beliefs.
Might be time to pull the plug on this one.
|
| 22 DEC 2010 at 8:55pm |
GusingtonGeneral
Posts : 18089
Joined: 16 AUG 2004
Location: US, USMA
Status : Offline | ^I agree with you. Let's try to get it away from that.
I'm glad my character uses a shield because I may be taking a bashing here soon.
- Rayfer
|
| 22 DEC 2010 at 10:49pm |
bayonetbrantColonel
Posts : 7056
Joined: 18 MAR 2007
Status : Offline | people cannot be reasoned out of positions they weren't reasoned into
{exit Brant}
Check out GrogNews for wargaming / mil news.
http://grognews.blogspot.com
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 12:11am |
son_of_montfortColonel
Posts : 8163
Joined: 6 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Þórgrímr
Originally Posted By son_of_montfort
SNIP - if people want to use biblical backing to take an anti-gay stance, they better darn well be following Kosher law. And did you know that, in Leviticus, you also have rules against menstruating women going to worship (and they have to have a ritual purification)? You don't see any advocacy groups about that!
SoM, if you are going to be throwing out accusations you best be sure you know what you are talking about. The Book of Leviticus in a part of the Torah, not the Christian Bible.
Cheers, Þórgrímr
That is incorrect. The Christian Bible consists of two parts - the Old Testament and New Testament. Leviticus clearly holds a place in the Old Testament (as does Deuteronomy, the other book of Hebrew law). I'm somewhat astounded that you would claim this, given how easy it is to fact check.
Originally Posted By Smuck
The Declaration was written for the common man, not for the Founding Fathers. You have valid points if you look at it from the perspective of the Founding Fathers. Keep in mind, the founding fathers had to 'sell' the idea to the population. This is speculative but had the Founding Father *a* God and not implied *the* Christian God, the population would have burned them at the stake.
Not really. The declaration didn't really have to be "sold" to the people - if you remember your history, they were already fighting the British at the time of the Declaration (just not officially). So actually the declaration had to take what the people had already sold the Colonial Congress and voice the grievances previously existing.
And you of all people should know that burning at the stake, in America, had mostly fallen by the wayside after the Salem Witch trials nearly a century before the Declaration was written.
But I don't have "show you" ActionJack. Res ipsa loquitur - the document speaks for itself - it says "Nature's God" and a vague "Creator" - it does not mention Jesus or the like. If they had meant this to be seen as the Christian God, it would have used Christian terminology, which it does not. Other similar documents DO use Christian terminology (In the year of our Lord, Jesus Christ...), thus it is conspicuously absent in the DoI.
Regarding DADT, I see your point Smuck. But, of course, it's not all that different from opposite sex encounters in the military. My thought is that not much will happen, but that remains to be seen.
Son_of_Montfort  "Slander is a poison which extinguishes charity, both in the slanderer and in the persons who listen to it." Bernard of Clairvaux
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 5:04am |
ActionJackColonel
Posts : 7885
Joined: 19 SEP 2005
Status : Offline | You don't give NAMBLA equal weight? Why not? Because you follow a god that had no problem handing women and young girls over to be raped and enslaved by the same men that had just murdered their menfolk in cold blood? You might as well, if you base your morality on the bible. Again, What is this steady moral compass you're following, ActionJack? How do you treat your own slaves? I imagine that you avoid shrimp like the plague, right?
And here I thought you were a tight-assed, unimaginative SOB. You're really quite emotional, aren't you? I can only laugh at this.
"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 5:21am |
UbercatCommander
Posts : 1184
Joined: 1 DEC 2008
Location: US, Near Allentown, PA
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By ActionJack
You don't give NAMBLA equal weight? Why not? Because you follow a god that had no problem handing women and young girls over to be raped and enslaved by the same men that had just murdered their menfolk in cold blood? You might as well, if you base your morality on the bible. Again, What is this steady moral compass you're following, ActionJack? How do you treat your own slaves? I imagine that you avoid shrimp like the plague, right?
And here I thought you were a tight-assed, unimaginative SOB. You're really quite emotional, aren't you? I can only laugh at this.
Sorry Gusington..
So AJ, you can't answer the question? It's really quite simple. On what grounds is biblegod qualified to dictate morality when he himself is conspicuously immoral, and downright evil?
The fact is, obviously, that you have no answer. You were brainwashed as a kid, and you can't bear to make the changes necessary to bring your worldview up to par with reality. So you're stuck with making accusations of emotionality, and claims of laughing, in order to avoid admitting that your back is against a wall.
Sure, I got emotional. Such behavior as you're displaying is very annoying. So what? It didn't invalidate my question. At no point did I my argumentation get incoherent, so you have a very clear point to respond to, and no valid reason to deflect.
Man up.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.”
-William H. Gascoyne
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 5:54am |
StaggerwingColonel
Posts : 3317
Joined: 4 AUG 2007
Status : Offline | And you of all people should know that burning at the stake, in America, had mostly fallen by the wayside after the Salem Witch trials nearly a century before the Declaration was written.
SoM,
Just a minor correction- The Salem Witch trials ended in hangings (and one person squashed under huge rocks)
but there were no burnings (that we know of..). Burning at the Stake for Witchcraft was more of a Continental
European trend. I'm sure there were many people burned alive in the Americas over the years (NA Indians may
have practiced this form of execution) but as far as Witchcraft goes England and the Colonies used other means.
This has nothing to do with your arguments. It's just that I have some acquaintances who are Wiccan and have
lectured me Ad Nausium about some of these things so I felt an obligation to point it out.
Now, back to the flying fur...[]
Wit Ye further, or how...?
-Voluspa (Poetic Eddas)
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 7:25am |
Centurion40General
Posts : 10892
Joined: 31 OCT 2003
Location: CA, Halifax
Status : Offline | SoM, Just a minor correction- The Salem Witch trials ended in hangings (and one person squashed under huge rocks) but there were no burnings (that we know of..). Burning at the Stake for Witchcraft was more of a Continental European trend. I'm sure there were many people burned alive in the Americas over the years (NA Indians may have practiced this form of execution) but as far as Witchcraft goes England and the Colonies used other means. This has nothing to do with your arguments. It's just that I have some acquaintances who are Wiccan and have lectured me Ad Nausium about some of these things so I felt an obligation to point it out.
I did not know this! Huh, Wiccans are actually touchy about executions myths. Who'd a thunk it. Monty Python's Holy Grail must really drive them twitchy.
"I love Anne Hathaway and her penchant for nudity." -The Dawg of Metal
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 7:36am |
ÞórgrímrCenturion
Posts : 321
Joined: 9 JAN 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By son_of_montfort
That is incorrect. The Christian Bible consists of two parts - the Old Testament and New Testament. Leviticus clearly holds a place in the Old Testament (as does Deuteronomy, the other book of Hebrew law). I'm somewhat astounded that you would claim this, given how easy it is to fact check.
First, OT:
The way I see it, as long as they conduct themselves by the rules and articles of the UCMJ I see no reason to deny them the opportunity to serve this nation. In times of war they will be drafted, so I see no reason to let them serve in times of peace.
Off Topic:
SoM, you are quite correct and I beg your pardon. I had checked my families personal bible before posting last time. I must have been raised with a new age bible or some small sect that did not recognize those books missing. It goes like this for the Old Testament (looking at it as I post): Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, etc., etc.
What I find funny is the many folks who claim the founding fathers were not Christians when of the fifty-six men who signed the Declaration of Independence nearly half (twenty-four) held seminary or Bible school degrees. Below are just a few, out of the many, quotes they had to say on the subject:
John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.
Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see.
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.
Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution
"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.
John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President
"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.
Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution
"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.
Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.
John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University
"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.
Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.
And finally Patrick Henry spells it out with no room to doubt:
Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.
Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 8:22am |
ÞórgrímrCenturion
Posts : 321
Joined: 9 JAN 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ubercat
On what grounds is biblegod qualified to dictate morality when he himself is conspicuously immoral, and downright evil?
SNIP You were brainwashed as a kid, and you can't bear to make the changes necessary to bring your worldview up to par with reality. So you're stuck with making accusations of emotionality, and claims of laughing, in order to avoid admitting that your back is against a wall.
I will take a swing at this Uebercat. But you best be careful with the brainwashing slurs, you seem awfully closed-minded yourself bud and seem to have had some brain bleach applied to your organic computer.
You asked the question, now I am going to try and answer it. But it may be long-winded, so be prepared.
First and foremost the laws of the Old Testament were given to the Nation of Israel only, are oppressive and impossible to follow, and are replaced with one prime commandment, one secondary, and four minor laws Christians are supposed to follow.
1. As non-Jewish members began to enter the fold, some of the more rigid members demanded that all new male members, Hebrew or not, be circumcised, young and old. This prompted a debate during which the harshness and unobtainable nature of the Jewish Law was pointed out:
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
2. After the matter of compliance with the Jewish laws was heard James announced the decision not to require the new members to follow the whole of the law but to honor only four minor laws. I highlighted the four minor laws Christians are supposed to follow:
Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
3. The apostles and elders then decided that this change should be immediately announced to all the members and do so with hand-carried letters. Again, I highlighted the four minor laws Christians are supposed to follow:
Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
4. All throughout the ministry of Jesus one important principle was emphasized, love. He declared this to be the basis of all love and prophecy. I highlighted the Commandments Christians are supposed to follow:
Matthew 22:35. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38. This is the first and great commandment. 39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mark 12:28. And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
John 13:34. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 15:12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
So, to me anyway, the strict adherence to Hebrew law demanded by most mainstream Christian churches is in direct defiance of the authority of the apostles. And as such it is also a contradiction of Jesus himself.
Now this, of course, does not refer to members of the Jewish faith. And for those who are quick to point out that Jesus followed the law, it should be remembered that he was a Jew and the edicts presented above were directed at the non-Jewish members of the church.
So Uebercat, there is my explanation as to why I follow the tenets of my God and his son, Jesus Christ and why he has a moral authority over me. Now whether you accept my explanation or not is your right. But be so kind as to allow me the same right of belief. []
Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 11:47am |
UbercatCommander
Posts : 1184
Joined: 1 DEC 2008
Location: US, Near Allentown, PA
Status : Offline | Thank you for trying, Thor. As a former Christian myself, I am aware that Jesus was supposed to have freed man from the tyranny of the law.
The problem is justifying the law in the first place. What is your answer for there being entire chapters regarding how to properly enslave human beings; how to murder villages, towns and cities full of men and boys, while kidnapping the women and girl children to be rape slaves; yet not one solitary verse that slavery is wrong?
How can you read the OT with even a ghost of objectivity or rationality, and not be revolted by the evil supreme being described therein? If someone tells me that their morality is based on the bible, my first thought is to look for a cop or keep a gun close to protect my loved ones.
Biblical morality is scary stuff. The fact that this god could actually support such vileness at any time, regardless of so called "new covenants" or new laws, shows that he is supremely unworthy of love, worship, or praise, to say nothing of emulation! After all, isn't he supposed to be "the same yesterday, today, and forever?" The baby raper can't be buried too deeply, Calvary or not.
I still want to hear any valid grounds for biblegod being any kind of moral authority. I understand the might makes right part. I get it. But that doesn't make him any more Good or Just than a Hitler or a Capone.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.”
-William H. Gascoyne
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 8:41pm |
ÞórgrímrCenturion
Posts : 321
Joined: 9 JAN 2009
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ubercat
Thank you for trying, Thor. As a former Christian myself, I am aware that Jesus was supposed to have freed man from the tyranny of the law.
The problem is justifying the law in the first place. What is your answer for there being entire chapters regarding how to properly enslave human beings; how to murder villages, towns and cities full of men and boys, while kidnapping the women and girl children to be rape slaves; yet not one solitary verse that slavery is wrong?
How can you read the OT with even a ghost of objectivity or rationality, and not be revolted by the evil supreme being described therein? If someone tells me that their morality is based on the bible, my first thought is to look for a cop or keep a gun close to protect my loved ones.
Biblical morality is scary stuff. The fact that this god could actually support such vileness at any time, regardless of so called "new covenants" or new laws, shows that he is supremely unworthy of love, worship, or praise, to say nothing of emulation! After all, isn't he supposed to be "the same yesterday, today, and forever?" The baby raper can't be buried too deeply, Calvary or not.
I still want to hear any valid grounds for biblegod being any kind of moral authority. I understand the might makes right part. I get it. But that doesn't make him any more Good or Just than a Hitler or a Capone.
Trying to justify them is insane, and I will not even attempt it. My main point is that, to me anyway, Christ told his non-Jewish followers that the laws of Moses do not apply to them. He then went on to say a new covenant has been made with god. That new covenant was covered by the 2 commandments and 4 minor laws were all that applied to Christians.
How can I read it? Because it has been corrupted and twisted by men to justify their own cruelties, and it is not the word of God, but the word of man. Jesus Christ represents the word of God and he said to love my fellow man, so those are the laws and commandments I follow.
Uebercat, you are generalizing and stereotyping now. Did you not read what I had posted? Jesus said turn the other cheek, love your fellow man, love your enemies. Jesus never said enslave your fellow man, he never said stone your fellow man. In point of fact, he said let him that hath no sin cast the first stone. But all you seem to want to bring up is the Old Testament. And as I have shown, it is not relevant to real Christians, so should not be heaped on their shoulders.
Dude I know you have a lot of anger inside you, but by your own words you are as dangerous as the people you are trying to denigrate yourself. You need to let go of that anger and hatred. And if anyone tries to base his morality on the laws of Moses, and claims to be a Christian, then he is NOT a Christian.
One thing you seem to not realize, or do not wish to acknowledge, is that the Jewish Laws do not apply to Christians, true Christians, ones that practice the teachings of Jesys Christ, and not a formed church like Catholicism, Protestantism, or nay other funny name you wish to call yourself, that is. I say this with the full knowledge that the modern day Christian churches are NOTHING like the church Christ wanted. Heck, that was ursurped by Constantine in 324 AD when he took it pagan to help him gain control of the Roman Empire. From there it was all downhill.
Now, I have provided passages in my last post to show my point of view, now you show me passages that Jesus Christ said for his followers to kill or enslave our fellow man. Keeping in mind that the Laws of Moses, by Christ's own words, do not apply to Christians.
Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
|
| 23 DEC 2010 at 9:36pm |
cicernoCenturion
Posts : 792
Joined: 22 JUN 2010
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Þórgrímr
Originally Posted By son_of_montfort
SNIP - if people want to use biblical backing to take an anti-gay stance, they better darn well be following Kosher law. And did you know that, in Leviticus, you also have rules against menstruating women going to worship (and they have to have a ritual purification)? You don't see any advocacy groups about that!
SoM, if you are going to be throwing out accusations you best be sure you know what you are talking about. The Book of Leviticus in a part of the Torah, not the Christian Bible.
Cheers, Þórgrímr
What? It's in my Bible. Was there a memo?
Here's the plan. We get the warhead and we hold the world ransom for... ONE MILLION DOLLARS!
|
| 24 DEC 2010 at 6:47am |
UbercatCommander
Posts : 1184
Joined: 1 DEC 2008
Location: US, Near Allentown, PA
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Þórgrímr
Originally Posted By Ubercat
Thank you for trying, Thor. As a former Christian myself, I am aware that Jesus was supposed to have freed man from the tyranny of the law.
The problem is justifying the law in the first place. What is your answer for there being entire chapters regarding how to properly enslave human beings; how to murder villages, towns and cities full of men and boys, while kidnapping the women and girl children to be rape slaves; yet not one solitary verse that slavery is wrong?
How can you read the OT with even a ghost of objectivity or rationality, and not be revolted by the evil supreme being described therein? If someone tells me that their morality is based on the bible, my first thought is to look for a cop or keep a gun close to protect my loved ones.
Biblical morality is scary stuff. The fact that this god could actually support such vileness at any time, regardless of so called "new covenants" or new laws, shows that he is supremely unworthy of love, worship, or praise, to say nothing of emulation! After all, isn't he supposed to be "the same yesterday, today, and forever?" The baby raper can't be buried too deeply, Calvary or not.
I still want to hear any valid grounds for biblegod being any kind of moral authority. I understand the might makes right part. I get it. But that doesn't make him any more Good or Just than a Hitler or a Capone.
Trying to justify them is insane, and I will not even attempt it. My main point is that, to me anyway, Christ told his non-Jewish followers that the laws of Moses do not apply to them. He then went on to say a new covenant has been made with god. That new covenant was covered by the 2 commandments and 4 minor laws were all that applied to Christians.
How can I read it? Because it has been corrupted and twisted by men to justify their own cruelties, and it is not the word of God, but the word of man. Jesus Christ represents the word of God and he said to love my fellow man, so those are the laws and commandments I follow.
Ok, one big problem debating with Christians is that you have to figure out where they stand on any issue you want to talk about. If they've decided they don't believe something, then God doesn't believe it either (from their perspective) so I end up wasting time trying to get them to provide evidence for a position they don't even hold! I've tried to get a handle on some bizarre things that I knew weren't in the bible, and then had the Christian say, in effect, "Oh, you're right, that's not in the bible. God just gave me a personal revelation!"
Do you reject the OT or some portion of it, as not being divinely inspired? Did God NOT hand the law, with all its evil, down to Moses?
Uebercat, you are generalizing and stereotyping now. Did you not read what I had posted? Jesus said turn the other cheek, love your fellow man, love your enemies. Jesus never said enslave your fellow man, he never said stone your fellow man. In point of fact, he said let him that hath no sin cast the first stone. But all you seem to want to bring up is the Old Testament. And as I have shown, it is not relevant to real Christians, so should not be heaped on their shoulders.
It sounds like I may be barking up the wrong tree, here. You just may have your own interpretation of the Christian religion which I would have to study, to even have a chance of understanding what you believe. You state that scripture has been corrupted by men, but then quote scripture to support your position.
Dude I know you have a lot of anger inside you, but by your own words you are as dangerous as the people you are trying to denigrate yourself. You need to let go of that anger and hatred. And if anyone tries to base his morality on the laws of Moses, and claims to be a Christian, then he is NOT a Christian.
One thing you seem to not realize, or do not wish to acknowledge, is that the Jewish Laws do not apply to Christians, true Christians, ones that practice the teachings of Jesys Christ, and not a formed church like Catholicism, Protestantism, or nay other funny name you wish to call yourself, that is. I say this with the full knowledge that the modern day Christian churches are NOTHING like the church Christ wanted. Heck, that was ursurped by Constantine in 324 AD when he took it pagan to help him gain control of the Roman Empire. From there it was all downhill.
Now, I have provided passages in my last post to show my point of view, now you show me passages that Jesus Christ said for his followers to kill or enslave our fellow man. Keeping in mind that the Laws of Moses, by Christ's own words, do not apply to Christians.
Cheers, Thor
I don't need to provide such passages, because I know that they don't exist. MY point isn't that Jesus is evil (arrogant and racist, sure) but that the God who is supposed to be behind the evil of the OT, and the moral evolution of the NT, is the same God. Did he just grow up, finally? I thought he was never changing.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.”
-William H. Gascoyne
|
| 24 DEC 2010 at 8:10am |
ÞórgrímrCenturion
Posts : 321
Joined: 9 JAN 2009
Status : Offline | @Cierno, see my last post to SoM. It helps to actually read all posts.
Originally Posted By Ubercat
Ok, one big problem debating with Christians is that you have to figure out where they stand on any issue you want to talk about. If they've decided they don't believe something, then God doesn't believe it either (from their perspective) so I end up wasting time trying to get them to provide evidence for a position they don't even hold! I've tried to get a handle on some bizarre things that I knew weren't in the bible, and then had the Christian say, in effect, "Oh, you're right, that's not in the bible. God just gave me a personal revelation!"
Do you reject the OT or some portion of it, as not being divinely inspired? Did God NOT hand the law, with all its evil, down to Moses?
One problem I have found debating athiests is that they spout a lot of hate, but never give a reason for that hate. Your last sentence is a strawman, a typical redirection to avoid answering questions. Now, to answer yours, see my last post to SoM where I describe to him my family's personal bible. In it there are no such books as Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
Originally Posted By Ubercat
It sounds like I may be barking up the wrong tree, here. You just may have your own interpretation of the Christian religion which I would have to study, to even have a chance of understanding what you believe. You state that scripture has been corrupted by men, but then quote scripture to support your position.
I think you are bud. My beliefs stem from the teachings of Jesus Christ, not the Old Testament. Ever notice the scripture I quote is in the New Testament? You know, the Testament of Jesus Christ? And so far all you have provided is hatred, nothing to support your position that Christians are some of the most evil people on the planet.
Originally Posted By Ubercat
I don't need to provide such passages, because I know that they don't exist. MY point isn't that Jesus is evil (arrogant and racist, sure) but that the God who is supposed to be behind the evil of the OT, and the moral evolution of the NT, is the same God. Did he just grow up, finally? I thought he was never changing.
So, you are conceding the point that Christians, ones who follow the teachings if Jesus Christ and not the laws of Moses, are not the evil scum you say they are?
Provide passages to support your assertion of arrogance and racism. Or that statement is based on hatred, ignorance of the subject matter, and therefore moot in the debate.
I have to tell you bud, without supporting evidence, you point is not very strong. Your hate-filled statements, without supporting evidence, does not hold a lot of water.
I have to say, I am finding our debate quite stimulating. Most athiests I have debated are reduced to name calling and foaming at the mouth by this time with my refusal to convert to their 'religion'. For you see, Athiesm is a religion all it's own, only it's belief system is based on nothing, nothing exists but chaos and death, no order, and nothing to look forward to but to become worm food.
You may not realize this Uebercat, but at one stage in my life I was just like you, angry and vindictive. And in that I blamed everything on God and his son. For years I dedicated myself to eradicating the teachings of his son by converting everybody I could to the notion that they were wrong in their beliefs. I was very good at it to.
One hint from a former athiest and 'killer' of God, lose the hate and name calling in your posts. Use actual passages to make a point. Hurling epithets and curses will only get you seen as just another foaming at the mouth athiest, and thus, ignored.
I thank you for your efforts, they just help strengthen my faith. []
Cheers, Thor
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
|
| 24 DEC 2010 at 8:16am |
hrothgarCenturion
Posts : 185
Joined: 24 FEB 2010
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Ubercat,
God never changes, but people do, and thank God, He comes to meet us where we are. The Law is a pedagogical device, intended to guide His people from the darkness in which they live into the light of God's love.
Do you have any idea of the brutality prevalent in ancient times? A life for an eye, your family's life for a tooth--that's what was common for those who had the power to enforce their will. Slave owners had no limits to their power over their slaves. Into these circumstances, God delivers His Law, intended to begin lifting His people from the mire, to set them on a path to justice. The things He asked of Israel were already more than they could bear, let alone if He had made His ultimate demands from the get-go. But there are hints all along that true justice is a matter of love and self-sacrifice, hints that will become crystal clear in the Cross. Whatever the specfics of the Law as spelled out in the Old Testament, the spirit of the Law remains the same--love justice, do mercy, and walk humbly before your God. But getting us stubborn, sinful people to that point requires starting with baby steps.
However, unlike those who attempt to justify legal prejudice against homosexuals on the basis of the scriptures, it seems to me that we are called to do justice to all--including homosexuals. "Love your enemies. Do good to those who despitefully use you." The state is not the Church, and Christians cannot demand that the state persecute non-Christians. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the workers want to pull up the weeds from amidst the crops, but the landlord forbids it, saying that separating the grain from the weeds will be left for the harvest. In other words, it's not our job to "purify" the world by action against "undesirables." The Church needs to remove the log from her own eyes before worrying about the specks in the eyes of others. Well before we finish accomplishing that, Christ will return, and He'll separate the justified from those who rejected Him. That's His job, not ours.
It's up to you, Ubercat, if you refuse to accept God's Word because it offends your myopic sensibilities. However, I'll pray for you.
|
| 24 DEC 2010 at 5:50pm |
UbercatCommander
Posts : 1184
Joined: 1 DEC 2008
Location: US, Near Allentown, PA
Status : Offline | I wrote a lengthy response to this early this morning, only to lose it all to a misplaced mouse click[:@]. I finally have the time to try again, so here goes....
Originally Posted By Þórgrímr
@Cierno, see my last post to SoM. It helps to actually read all posts.
Originally Posted By Ubercat
Ok, one big problem debating with Christians is that you have to figure out where they stand on any issue you want to talk about. If they've decided they don't believe something, then God doesn't believe it either (from their perspective) so I end up wasting time trying to get them to provide evidence for a position they don't even hold! I've tried to get a handle on some bizarre things that I knew weren't in the bible, and then had the Christian say, in effect, "Oh, you're right, that's not in the bible. God just gave me a personal revelation!"
Do you reject the OT or some portion of it, as not being divinely inspired? Did God NOT hand the law, with all its evil, down to Moses?
One problem I have found debating athiests is that they spout a lot of hate, but never give a reason for that hate. Your last sentence is a strawman, a typical redirection to avoid answering questions. Now, to answer yours, see my last post to SoM where I describe to him my family's personal bible. In it there are no such books as Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
So you do have your own version of the bible, which doesn't match the one accepted by the majority of Christians. The worst I could accuse you of, then, is cherry picking. That's irrelevant to my point, so I won't bother. I think I AM barking up the wrong tree.
Originally Posted By Ubercat
It sounds like I may be barking up the wrong tree, here. You just may have your own interpretation of the Christian religion which I would have to study, to even have a chance of understanding what you believe. You state that scripture has been corrupted by men, but then quote scripture to support your position.
I think you are bud. My beliefs stem from the teachings of Jesus Christ, not the Old Testament. Ever notice the scripture I quote is in the New Testament? You know, the Testament of Jesus Christ? And so far all you have provided is hatred, nothing to support your position that Christians are some of the most evil people on the planet.
Originally Posted By Ubercat
I don't need to provide such passages, because I know that they don't exist. MY point isn't that Jesus is evil (arrogant and racist, sure) but that the God who is supposed to be behind the evil of the OT, and the moral evolution of the NT, is the same God. Did he just grow up, finally? I thought he was never changing.
So, you are conceding the point that Christians, ones who follow the teachings if Jesus Christ and not the laws of Moses, are not the evil scum you say they are?
I never said that Christians are evil scum, nor do I believe it, but I can see how I gave you that impression, and I apologize for it. My illustrations about calling a cop or keeping a gun close were not meant literally. I was trying to make a point about most Christians not even knowing what they say, when they claim that biblegod is all Good and all Just.
Christians who can read about dashing babies on rocks Psalm 137, selling daughters to be sex slaves Exodus 21, and many other reprehensible bible bits without having a problem are the scary ones. Throw that all out and I have no quarrel. I can wonder how you pull Jesus out of a historical vacuum, lacking the OT background, but it's irrelevant to this thread.
Provide passages to support your assertion of arrogance and racism. Or that statement is based on hatred, ignorance of the subject matter, and therefore moot in the debate.
I thought the cursing of the fig tree was pretty arrogant. Yes, I get that it was meant as a parable for church members to be productive and bear fruit. I still found the attitude objectionable. Even worse was his treatment of the poor gentile woman who begged healing for her daughter Matt 15. Sure, he healed the little girl eventually, but not before calling gentiles dogs (It is not good to take the children's bread, and cast it to the dogs ). She had to grovel, and admit being a dog(Certainly, Lord; but even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table), before her loving savior deigned to provide the healing.
I have to tell you bud, without supporting evidence, you point is not very strong. Your hate-filled statements, without supporting evidence, does not hold a lot of water.
I'm not sure where you're getting the hate from. Yes, there are definitely things about Christianity that draw my ire, but "hate-filled" is a pretty strong word.
I have to say, I am finding our debate quite stimulating. Most athiests I have debated are reduced to name calling and foaming at the mouth by this time with my refusal to convert to their 'religion'. For you see, Athiesm is a religion all it's own, only it's belief system is based on nothing, nothing exists but chaos and death, no order, and nothing to look forward to but to become worm food.
I'm wondering where you find your atheists. Do you volunteer counseling troubled youth, or something? I suggest you spend some time at freeratio.org if you really want to debate. I was quite active there a few years ago, but haven't been there much of late. You won't find a more mature arena for discovering different world views. I don't recall even one atheist ever calling a believer names, or foaming at the mouth. The forum is strictly moderated in a fair and impartial manner, and anyone who got personally insulting would be called on the carpet, probably even faster than here.
As for atheism being a religion of chaos, or of nothing; You can call it that if you want. It's a good way to avoid really examining a naturalistic world view, but no more productive then believing that Christians are evil scum would be.
You may not realize this Uebercat, but at one stage in my life I was just like you, angry and vindictive. And in that I blamed everything on God and his son. For years I dedicated myself to eradicating the teachings of his son by converting everybody I could to the notion that they were wrong in their beliefs. I was very good at it to.
Sounds like you used to be named Saul. []
One hint from a former athiest and 'killer' of God, lose the hate and name calling in your posts. Use actual passages to make a point. Hurling epithets and curses will only get you seen as just another foaming at the mouth athiest, and thus, ignored.
I thank you for your efforts, they just help strengthen my faith. []
Cheers, Thor
I still don't know where you're getting all the hate, and name calling from. Anger, sure, but hate? If you want to know where the anger came from, just re read the OT stuff I posted.
In any case, Have a Merry Christmas! [sm=areindeer[1].gif]
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
“I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers.”
-William H. Gascoyne
|
