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Topic: Most Challenging Startegy/Wargame AI

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All Forums : [GAMES] : Computer Gaming > Most Challenging Startegy/Wargame AI

#1 13 JUL 2011 at 2:56pm
bootlegger267 Commander Posts : 1304 Joined: 17 APR 2005 Status : Offline	Which wargames/strategy games do you feel have the best AI? If it's a cheater, put a * next to the title. An "Iron Duke" from 2/67 Ar..... Call Sign "Duke Mike Gulf"
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#2 13 JUL 2011 at 3:13pm
lparkh Centurion Posts : 90 Joined: 5 OCT 2007 Status : Offline	Strategic Command 2 was pretty good I thought.. I played through Weapons and Warfare. Significantly stronger than what I've seen for vanilla Commander:Europe at War or HOI II or HOI III. And having AI play european theater is remarkably challenging concept. I imagine but do not know that the AI improved even more in all the more recent expansions. Apparently the Panther Games have good AI but never tried them. Age of Wonders did ok ..though no idea how much it cheated.
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#3 13 JUL 2011 at 3:19pm
Philippe Commander Posts : 1026 Joined: 14 DEC 2008 Status : Offline	The most challenging wargames are those that allow you to play head to head against yourself. This is how most board wargamers have been playing for years, they just don't talk about it much. The nice thing about this (which is also a weakness) is that you have an opponent of exactly equal skill. The reason it's a weakness is that you won't learn anywhere near as much from yourself as you will from a better player, which can only happen if you play PBEM. Most of the HPS/Tiller games and Combat Mission fall into this category. The problem with ranking AI's is that not only are objective criteria generally lacking (e.g. scripted vs. non-scripted), but the player doesn't really have access to information on what the AI is actually capable of doing. Every generation gets the Greeks and Romans it deserves. History is a bad joke played by the living on the dead.
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#4 13 JUL 2011 at 3:28pm
AAshbery76 Centurion Posts : 958 Joined: 15 MAR 2004 Location: UK Status : Offline	Sword of the Stars always provides a good game and it has no cheats on normal.
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#5 13 JUL 2011 at 3:30pm
bboyer66 Colonel Posts : 4709 Joined: 17 APR 2006 Location: US, Pittsburgh PA Status : Offline	1. Guns of August 2. AGEODs Athena AI for their Civil War game and Birth of America II 3. The NVA and Vietcong in the Vietnam Scenario:Norm Kroger's Operational Art of War III Pittsburgh Eats
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#6 13 JUL 2011 at 3:58pm
Fenwick Centurion Posts : 139 Joined: 29 MAR 2007 Status : Offline	1830. Ferociously good AI, with no cheat at any level. They had to patch it to put in an easier "Easy" level.
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#7 13 JUL 2011 at 4:16pm
Wolverine101 Colonel Posts : 3804 Joined: 14 DEC 2009 Status : Offline	Centurion Defender of Rome War of the Lance X-Com Master of Magic Master of Orion II Medieval Total War origional Making History II Galactic Civilization II Sacrifice Seven Kingdoms Warlords IV (after 1.04a or 1.05 patch) Take Command 2nd Manassas/Gettysburg:Scourge of War Civilization II & IV Tin Soldiers:Caesar Spartan Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri Kohan II Age of Kings Sid Meier's origional Railroad Tycoon Sid Meier's Civil War collection:Gettysburg/Antietam Master of Magic Heroes of Might & Magic II & III I think everyone knows the Civilization series cheats but it's a fun cheat and at least you know it and it only happens at higher difficulties most of the time. GalCiv2 has cheats above normal difficulty but usually only amount to more resources not ship power cheats or stuff like that. I don't really concern myself with the ai cheating as I'd rather have something challenging to play than just something that wastes my time and is nothing more than a roadblock to the end. On higher difficulties all games cheat as opposed to better playing ai's. Spartan is the only game I know of that the ai actually plays better the higher you go up in the difficulty levels and also gets cheats. Want is the foundation of impatience, a step without thought can be a drop without end Dbeves: And LMFAO - didnt you just have to work battlefront into your response somewhere - you are priceless. Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAycDqhog "ha! GL getting THAT much...lolz"
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#8 13 JUL 2011 at 5:31pm
MarkShot Commander Posts : 2935 Joined: 3 MAR 2004 Location: US Status : Offline	1830 (no AI cheating; no randomness; a tight set of elegant rules leads tremendous variability) Designers: Francis Tresham & Bruce Shelly
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#9 13 JUL 2011 at 5:42pm
Herman Hum Centurion Posts : 888 Joined: 28 JUL 2006 Location: 0 Status : Offline	I'll suggest Balance of Power (no cheating, as far as I could tell). The PlayersDB - The Harpoon Community's #1 Choice.
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#10 13 JUL 2011 at 5:59pm
MarkShot Commander Posts : 2935 Joined: 3 MAR 2004 Location: US Status : Offline	Herman, Did you get the book published on the design of that game? It's an interesting read.
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#11 13 JUL 2011 at 6:02pm
Herman Hum Centurion Posts : 888 Joined: 28 JUL 2006 Location: 0 Status : Offline	No, I never had the fortune to read that book. The PlayersDB - The Harpoon Community's #1 Choice.
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#12 13 JUL 2011 at 6:05pm
MarkShot Commander Posts : 2935 Joined: 3 MAR 2004 Location: US Status : Offline	Just mailed it to you.
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#13 13 JUL 2011 at 6:08pm
gabeeg Centurion Posts : 317 Joined: 20 JAN 2010 Location: US, California Status : Offline	Best Wargame AI that I have played against is Panthers BftB. gabeeg
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#14 13 JUL 2011 at 6:11pm
Nefaro Colonel Posts : 4641 Joined: 6 OCT 2003 Status : Offline	Hannibal Rome & Carthage, easily I guess it could have a * too since it's created specifically for solo play from one side and is as lop-sided as it's historical subject, with different strengths for each. Besides and beyond that point, it still has one of the best (if not the best) strategy game AIs I've seen, and regularly pulls some tricks on me that I don't expect. There's no "cheats" in the pure interpretation.. no bonus rolls or such. __________________________ Are you brave enough for 640kb?
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#15 13 JUL 2011 at 6:19pm
bboyer66 Colonel Posts : 4709 Joined: 17 APR 2006 Location: US, Pittsburgh PA Status : Offline	This report is from a supercomputer playing Civilization. MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Lab report that they have boosted the effectiveness of a game-playing AI by enabling it to read the manual: “When the researchers augmented a machine-learning system so that it could use a player’s manual to guide the development of a game-playing strategy, its rate of victory jumped from 46 percent to 79 percent.” What’s most amazing about this is that despite the trial and error nature of this kind of machine learning, the ability to correlate text instructions with events in the game do seem to have a significant impact on the system’s capacity to learn how to play, as the article explains: “The researchers also tested a more-sophisticated machine-learning algorithm that eschewed textual input but used additional techniques to improve its performance. Even that algorithm won only 62 percent of its games.” So, you know, RTFM is sound advice, even if you are a machine. Pittsburgh Eats
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#16 13 JUL 2011 at 6:31pm
phredd1 Commander Posts : 1065 Joined: 10 SEP 2006 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By bboyer66* This report is from a supercomputer playing Civilization. MIT’s Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Lab report that they have boosted the effectiveness of a game-playing AI by enabling it to read the manual: “When the researchers augmented a machine-learning system so that it could use a player’s manual to guide the development of a game-playing strategy, its rate of victory jumped from 46 percent to 79 percent.” What’s most amazing about this is that despite the trial and error nature of this kind of machine learning, the ability to correlate text instructions with events in the game do seem to have a significant impact on the system’s capacity to learn how to play, as the article explains: “The researchers also tested a more-sophisticated machine-learning algorithm that eschewed textual input but used additional techniques to improve its performance. Even that algorithm won only 62 percent of its games.” So, you know, RTFM is sound advice, even if you are a machine. Interesting, somehow I just assumed all game's AI had the manual enabled in their programming. Why don't they use a tougher game? Make the machine play WitP or Harpoon and make it read the respective game manual................................ Back on topic: Panzer General Forever One mistake, and you're sliding down the razor blade of defeat, and a dull, rusted, and poisoned blade at that.
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#17 13 JUL 2011 at 6:56pm
Herman Hum Centurion Posts : 888 Joined: 28 JUL 2006 Location: 0 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By phredd1* Why don't they use a tougher game? Make the machine play WitP or Harpoon and make it read the respective game manual................................ Better yet, make the machine de-bug Harpoon. Now, THAT would be proof of artificial intelligence. [ ] The PlayersDB - The Harpoon Community's #1 Choice.
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#18 13 JUL 2011 at 9:08pm
Nefaro Colonel Posts : 4641 Joined: 6 OCT 2003 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By Herman Hum* *Originally Posted By phredd1* Why don't they use a tougher game? Make the machine play WitP or Harpoon and make it read the respective game manual................................ Better yet, make the machine de-bug Harpoon. Now, THAT would be proof of artificial intelligence. [ ] You mean artificial miracle working? [sm=7rotflmao.gif] I jest because I love it so. __________________________ Are you brave enough for 640kb?
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#19 14 JUL 2011 at 6:22am
Joram Centurion Posts : 799 Joined: 3 DEC 2006 Location: US Status : Offline	Wolverine, you list so many I'm beginning to think any strategy game is challenging for you! I kid, I kid! My vote has and always will be: Tin Soldiers.
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#20 14 JUL 2011 at 6:36am
Wolverine101 Colonel Posts : 3804 Joined: 14 DEC 2009 Status : Offline	Wolverine, you list so many I'm beginning to think any strategy game is challenging for you! I kid, I kid! I like variety in my computer ai strategy/wargames that have a good/great ai [ ] Want is the foundation of impatience, a step without thought can be a drop without end Dbeves: And LMFAO - didnt you just have to work battlefront into your response somewhere - you are priceless. Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAycDqhog "ha! GL getting THAT much...lolz"
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#21 14 JUL 2011 at 6:39am
Wolverine101 Colonel Posts : 3804 Joined: 14 DEC 2009 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By MarkShot* 1830 (no AI cheating; no randomness; a tight set of elegant rules leads tremendous variability) Designers: Francis Tresham & Bruce Shelly Oh yeah almost forgot this ^ one. The computer ai may not cheat but it will sure gang up on you and not help you float your railroad, buy up what is left after you float it and then drive it to the bottom of the stock market every round after that. One will buy it then sell it the next round then the next one will buy it and sell it the next round an on an on. I sort of think that is cheating but it's more like the ai is just programmed to annoy you. In all fairness they should have allowed the player(s) to buy ALL the stock not just 6 shares. Then that chit wouldn't happen to me. Want is the foundation of impatience, a step without thought can be a drop without end Dbeves: And LMFAO - didnt you just have to work battlefront into your response somewhere - you are priceless. Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAycDqhog "ha! GL getting THAT much...lolz"
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#22 14 JUL 2011 at 6:55am
spelk Commander Posts : 1666 Joined: 19 FEB 2009 Location: UK Status : Offline	I'd probably add AI War: Fleet Command to the list of challenging AI.
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#23 14 JUL 2011 at 7:18am
Deerslayer Centurion Posts : 69 Joined: 27 JAN 2005 Location: US Status : Offline	Hannibal and Panther Games for sure.
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#24 14 JUL 2011 at 9:44am
MarkShot Commander Posts : 2935 Joined: 3 MAR 2004 Location: US Status : Offline	1830 The AI is playing by the rules with each AI player's actions being legal. Where the problem is that they all have a single common goal that YOU lose: - So they will churn stocks. - They will force a bankruptcy if anyone but you would win or correspondingly delay it. I don't really consider these cheats. Also, anyone who plays the game seriously should be well aware of them. So, if you plan to win the game, you cannot depend on a slim margin of EPS in the end game to win. You need to have some plan to achieve a big networth margin. There are many strategies, but as this is not an 1830 thread. I'll leave it at that. More philosophically interesting for me is do chess engines cheat? When they play their best games I feel like they are cheating as they are literally playing a perfect game computationally on so many different algorithmic levels. What chance do I have as a moderately educated human? It feels like cheating! Oddly, for me to beat these engines, the computer does need to cheat; meaning intentionally playing dumb and hang some pieces to give me a chance.
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#25 14 JUL 2011 at 11:26am
phredd1 Commander Posts : 1065 Joined: 10 SEP 2006 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By Herman Hum* *Originally Posted By phredd1* Why don't they use a tougher game? Make the machine play WitP or Harpoon and make it read the respective game manual................................ Better yet, make the machine de-bug Harpoon. Now, THAT would be proof of artificial intelligence. [ ] No, it would be proof that Skynet is about to go online.......................................................... One mistake, and you're sliding down the razor blade of defeat, and a dull, rusted, and poisoned blade at that.
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