Wargamer Home - Forum Home
Welcome Guest, please Login or Register!
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register or login before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Topic: I'm afraid of change...and I like continuity

    Page 1

All Forums : [GAMES] : Computer Gaming > I'm afraid of change...and I like continuity
14 JUL 2011 at 8:10pm

toonces

Commander
Commander



Posts : 2322
Joined: 21 MAR 2006

Status : Offline
I know, a confusing thread title.  I'm having trouble distilling this into one thread, but I don't know that it warrants two threads. Point 1:  I finally was able to successfully install and play Napoleon Total War tonight.  I've had it a while, but a combination of factors kept it from being played successfully.  Anyway, my 99.9% of experience is with M2TW.  I have some RTW time, but most of my gaming has been in the M2TW world.  I've completed several campaigns; two Crusades, one Teutonic, and most of a grand campaign vanilla.  I never finished RTW although I started a lot of campaigns. One of the reasons I think I stick with M2TW over other games is that it is a system I'm very comfortable with.  I've been playing it a lot of years.  I don't know everything about it, and I'd guess I'm an average player, but I know the interface and what to expect from the game fairly well, so it's always a "sure thing" to boot up and play because it's a known quantity. I booted up NTW tonight and felt a lot lost.  I could see M2TW in there, but I was scared and uncomfortable because things were looking quite different.  The gameplay felt different; same somewhat, but different enough.  And my first feeling was, "screw this, let me boot up M2TW!"  Why?  Because I'm not looking for a new game; I'm looking for M2TW with guns...if that makes sense.  I like M2TW just as it is; I'm not looking for a new game.  It's hard to explain.  I felt like an old friend had changed on me. I tie that to point 2:  I like continuity.  By background, I'm a Dungeons and Dragons player since I was about 9 or 10 years old; about 1981 or so.  I started with the Basic Game and moved to Advanced within a year or so.  I started with Keep on the Borderlands like everyone else.  When I sign up to a dungeon crawl/RPG, what I'm looking for is a full-on "all-in" into the game world and system.  This is sort of like my M2TW/NTW scenario above with a twist.  See, I want to learn a game system, and then I want to play different scenarios with it.  I don't want to re-learn the game everytime the game changes.  Like, take my all-time favorite game Falcon 5.  I love Falcon because I can throw any theater in there, any jet, and I know what to expect.  It's like a comfortable shoe- a known quantity.  I'm sure I'd love DCS:A-10, but I'd have to learn a whole new game system to understand the underlying simulation.  Meanwhile, I can fly my A-10 in Falcon and I know what I'm getting before I even boot up.  So, when I talk dungeon crawl/RPG, what I'm really looking for, besides gameplay, is that if I invest the time in the game world, it will be THE ONE that I play.  I don't have time nor patience for multiple game worlds and lore.  I want to learn and love one system and world, one set of monsters and fiends, and then play it in different settings.  The gameplay is the same, but the dungeons change. I suppose, in some way, that's why I was all into Temple of Elemental Evil vs. Dragon Age.  Not that I know much about either, but if you attach the "official" D&
logo to ToEE, then I guess I'm in.  I should be able to expect a certain gameplay from that system.  But I can't quite figure out if that system is it.  I only want to buy into one system, you know?  I have found that I like Oblivion.  Tonight I was watching Skyrim videos on Youtube and, boy, it sure does look wonderful.  So part of me is saying, maybe I should ditch the whole D&
superiority thing and buy into a full-on Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim universe.  Like, I think I could totally just buy into the whole lore of that pretend universe and monster set and not worry that it's not an official D&
where I can play my Paladin.  So, besides being a rambling post, I'm wondering if this makes sense, and if you guys think it's worth getting with the Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim lore whole hog...I mean really trying to read up and understand what the heck the games are about.  Because, truthfully, I'm not really sure what the point of any of those games is.

"I am always fondling my nut sack, just to be safe. " - bboyer66

 

"It's like Mount and Blade got together with Total War and had a game baby."  - Bison36 on Real Warfare Northern Crusades

 

The Old Guard


Profile Search


14 JUL 2011 at 8:16pm

junk2drive

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1006
Joined: 5 JUN 2005
Location: US, az

Status : Offline
This is a lot like that burn out thread a while ago.

The Wargamers Tournament: Phase One Combatant Medal


Profile Search
14 JUL 2011 at 8:27pm

MarkShot

Commander
Commander



Posts : 2935
Joined: 3 MAR 2004
Location: US

Status : Offline
For me a game is only worth investing in if there is tremendous longevity and replay value after the learning curve. Games with very large learning curves which cannot even be reasonably played or enjoyed until much of it is surmounted are the least attractive.  Much better are games which you can get into even while being a novice as you ramp up your concepts and skills. What led me to play a small set of relatively older games was that I wanted to be playing games as opposed to continuously trying to climb the steep learning slope.  I always found the fact that most members of this community buy so many games each year quite bewildering.  Perhaps most are a lot sharper than me, or have trouble maintaining focus, or just are predisposed to waste money ...  I never really understood it. All things being equal, complex games with relatively short time spans to complete are more attractive than games which can take months or years.  Good examples:  1830, pool, chess ... (a game can be played in under an hour)  Pool and chess have the added benefit that there is a vast quantity of real world material written about these that can help you to quick grasp some of the finer points to spiff up your game and add to your pleasure. Good luck, Mike!

Profile Search
14 JUL 2011 at 9:08pm

ghostryder

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 7345
Joined: 4 MAY 2004
Location: US, Texas

Status : Offline
Good post toonces--for me I understand completely what you are saying. Temple of Elemental Evil has it's share of issues for me but one thing it does not lack is a solid "Base"---this base when taken as a whole amounts to "LORE"...this includes not only the world, the races within, the classes the races offer but also the underlying rules set that governs combat, spells, armor and weapons-as well as player abilitities in terms of stats and leveling and the paths they can choose as they level. The problem with Oblivion is it threw :Lore: out the window. Arena had it, Daggerfall had it-but then Morrowind and Todd Howard came along and decided to make it marketable....and the underling rules changed. At first modders attempted to correct it---but by the time Oblivion hit it was beyond recovering. Start a Mage or a Warrior it matters not-by level 20 your mage can tank as well as the warrior---and all since of progress (and balance) are lost well the "Monsters level with you" scheme. Things get much worse when you introduce so called "Action RPGs"...which I believe is a totally bogus title for such games. Because 'twitch' reflex trumps all else , and because nothing is based on the underlining rules as far as statsm ability, etc it is nearly impossible for developers to attempt any semblance of balance in the game as you level nor any decent A.I. to challenge the player----twitch reflex trumps all. Think about as a programer. In a "System" like AD&
your database is there to work with. The programmer KNOWS what a level 20 mage is, what spells he can cast, what armor he can wear, and what his weaknesses are. Given this database of information it is then possible to write a challenging A.I. that will remain challenging throughout the game. In an action twitch game you simply do not have this ability. The monster can have pathfinding to find you and attack- but in terms of combat he can only adjust how hard the monster hits, how fast and his resistance to spells and damage. He can't tell if the mage can fight like a warrior--which in Oblivion he can, and so on. Like a wargame the "system" allows an A.I. approach much like that found in wargames. The Warrior is a tank, the ranger a sniper, the mage artillery and so on, and the ability to program an A.I. that offers real strategic challenges to the player. this example is best seen in MMOs. Play a warrior and your see monsters attacking with ranged spells or weapons, and play a mage and your see monsters using melee combat to interupt and kill. Your also see an ingame ability to balance the game from lvl 1 to lvl 80 and the ability to give the player something to chase after during all that period. In an action game once the player figures out the timing balance goes out the window, or if the player is just poor at reflex games he will always struggle throughout. The new titles LOOK attractive but the actual play is very limited because of these reasons. The player will never have to plan and play strategically, but rather look for exploits and experience a game that is either too difficult at the beginning and too hard at the end or vise versa. There are a couple exceptions, Say Mass Effect-which managed to keep things well balanced throughout--but in most cases you have a Diablo experience. The challenge is the clickfest--- MTW, RTW are pretty much in the same boat. The more they try to please everyone the more the game displeases everyone. I say keep the rules, keep the LORE or go make a damn FPS and be done with it- because in these games introducing twitch gaming throws out what makes these games what they are.

 

The Old Guard


Profile Search
14 JUL 2011 at 9:21pm

Wolverine101

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 4335
Joined: 14 DEC 2009

Status : Offline
The leveling system of Morrowind and Oblivion (and even Daggerfall) will drive you nuts if you're used to the DnD system. Jumping in place or running everywhere you go isn't my idea of leveling up but sure enough if you pick those two as your main attributes you can level higher than the highest tree just doing those two things.     Oblivion although I like it changed the gameplay around a lot as everything levels with you (unless you install one of the great mods that fixed this) and what used to be a level 1 whatever will now be whatever level you are. Many don't like that including me. If you were lucky enough you could even encounter a level 1 dragon when you are level 1, silly stuff like that sort of ruins the roleplaying element we play these games for in the first place.     The graphics and atmosphere though in these games are 2nd to none really even including Dragon Age imho. I could get lost in the world just riding around looking at he scenery and seeing what I could get myself into outside of the story. The gladiator/arena fights were fun also.     So, if you're going to get into Morrowind or Oblivion I suggest at least one thing, put every skill that you consider to be most important as your MINORS and those that you know you won't use much if at all as your MAJORS. You'll enjoy a better game and won't be level 50 in a day.

Want is the foundation of impatience, a step without thought can be a drop without end


Dbeves: And LMFAO - didnt you just have to work battlefront into your response somewhere - you are priceless.

 

Listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAycDqhog 

 

"ha! GL getting THAT much...lolz"


Profile Search
14 JUL 2011 at 9:23pm

stophro

Commander
Commander



Posts : 2172
Joined: 3 MAY 2007

Status : Offline
Toonces, long time D&
'er like you and followed the EXACT same path at the same age (spooky, I know).  I was the one that suggested ToEE in your "Dungeon" thread.  I liked it for several reasons, not the least of which it was a "classic" module from wayback.          I can't say what kind of user created content you can get for ToEE, but if there is even a decent amount, I would say, stick with what you know.  Maybe some enterprising lad/lass has taken the whole ToEE module string together and you'll have months or even YEARS of good gameplay!         Failing that, we can just go back to P&P RPG's.  I got TWO copies of Keep on the Borderlands...;-)

 

 

 


Profile Search
14 JUL 2011 at 9:36pm

phredd1

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1085
Joined: 10 SEP 2006

Status : Offline
Morrowind and Oblivion were both games that I enjoyed. Morrowind is so free with what you can do and when, that it is very easy to spend months with the game, and not be anywhere near finished. This is by choice, you can follow the main quest more tightly should you choose. I still haven't finished it. I will eventually assuming I live long enough. Oblivion is a bit more structured, but again should you desire it you can spend months just wandering around doing stuff. It has been criticized by some for having the monsters and foes matching your leveling up. (You're Level 10, so are the bad guys, you're Level 20, so are they.) However, that problem can be greatly mitigated by intelligent character development. I won't spoil it for you by telling you how. I still haven't finished it either, but I plan to. Skyrim looks awesome, I fully intend to get it. Is it worth it to you, I don't know. The way I see it, you have two choices: 1) Assuming you're strong willed enough borrow a strategy guide and just read the sections describing the weaponry and magic. That may give you a hint as to whether or not the game intrigues you. 2) Break down and buy either Morrowind or Oblivion and see for yourself. If you do, be sure to get the strategy guide as well. You will find it helpful. NOTE: The Oblivion strategy guide doesn't tell how to beat the levelling up problem.

One mistake, and you're sliding down the razor blade of defeat, and a dull, rusted, and poisoned blade at that.


Profile Search
14 JUL 2011 at 9:41pm

phredd1

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1085
Joined: 10 SEP 2006

Status : Offline
Originally Posted By Wolverine101
So, if you're going to get into Morrowind or Oblivion I suggest at least one thing, put every skill that you consider to be most important as your MINORS and those that you know you won't use much if at all as your MAJORS. You'll enjoy a better game and won't be level 50 in a day.
Wolverine, that is a better solution than what I eventually came up with.  I'm gonna have to try that out. Thanks!

One mistake, and you're sliding down the razor blade of defeat, and a dull, rusted, and poisoned blade at that.


Profile Search
14 JUL 2011 at 10:03pm

destraex

Global Moderator
Global Moderator



Posts : 6768
Joined: 8 MAY 2001
Location: AT, 3D

Status : Offline
I have a few friends like you toonces and know the solution. You need a friend to get you into it. To teach you the basics. I have a mate (sorry jar
) who wants to get into the total war games and others like silent hunter. But will not until I take the lead and then recommend and finally teach him the basics. After that he is off for years with the game enjoying it far more than I ever will. Learning tricks and refining his play. You see he is just that kind of guy. One that needs the base load of learning and change taken away so that he can enjoy. By the same token he is the kinda guy that does not feel he can take on anybody in VS combat until he is at generalissimo level in single player.

Cliffs of Dover finally fixed

 

The Old Guard


Profile Search
15 JUL 2011 at 5:47am

MengJiao

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 536
Joined: 2 AUG 2010

Status : Offline
Originally Posted By destraex
        I have a few friends like you toonces and know the solution. You need a friend to get you into it. To teach you the basics.     I have a mate (sorry jar
) who wants to get into the total war games and others like silent hunter. But will not until I take the lead and then recommend and finally teach him the basics.     After that he is off for years with the game enjoying it far more than I ever will. Learning tricks and refining his play.     You see he is just that kind of guy. One that needs the base load of learning and change taken away so that he can enjoy.         By the same token he is the kinda guy that does not feel he can take on anybody in VS combat until he is at generalissimo level in single player.    
          Oh gosh.  I'm the opposite (as I noted in the burn out thread).  My favorite moment in a game is when I'm just learning and things go very wrong.  The WTF moment.  I too just reinstalled NTW, but I remember it all all too well.  I'll have to get a mod and hope it has problematic features.     
This war is about Slavery -- Spartacus

Profile Search
All Forums : [GAMES] : Computer Gaming > I'm afraid of change...and I like continuity

    Page 1

Jump to:
0 Members Subscribed To This Topic