Originally Posted By mitra (10 FEB 2012 11:01am)

this week I had not time for do other improvement to mod because of work; I'm projecting to create a new secondary quest to campaign-mod and add new logic to AI troops in the mitra-mod especially in the attack logic. I will be very gratuful to every feedback to eventual problem related to mods.

Don't let me rush you, I still have games I've not even played yet so my free time is kept quite busy as it is.

Originally Posted By DCosta (10 FEB 2012 2:08am)

I bought this yesterday. The Crusader Kings 2 demo getting me in the mood for some middle ages action.

 

It was a toss up between this the first King Arthur Rolepaying Wargame or a Crusdaers game. This one won out due to reading The Wargamer review about how detailed it was, this I love. I also like the Moutn and Blade feeling. I may get King Arthur aswell at some point. Though I heard it was very difficult. I must confess though with real time games I'm  a wimp and always play at the easiest level.

 

I'm sure I made the right decision. I can at times find realtime confusing to say the least yet I'm happy here as of yet there aren't loads of units to manage. Funny enough games that people didn't like who love RTS games like for instance DoW2 I loved. For the very reason they didn't, small amount of untis to control and no base building! For me the last DOW2 was a massive dissapointment as they bought back base building.

 

It seems quite difficult and trying to get money is hard. Also there are alot of big enemy armies roaming eveywhere so I'm constantly trying to dodge them to get to my battle (I've taken out three robber bands so far).

 

I've just installed this mod and will try it later.

 

Are there any tips? I didn't notice but can you choose a faction\nation at the start? What am I best putting skill points to at first? Should I concentrate on just one or two skills?  Any good early trade routes?

 

Thanks 

I don't know about which skills are the most ideal to lead with, in the early game, but I generally choose the bonus morale and bonus Army XP ones for awhile.    I'm not sure if the morale skill is really giving me much of it, though, as it's not been noticeable to me yet.   I'm certain that even when I jump some small bands, and make extra spending coin, I'm always limited by the Army XP cost of new and upgrade options in my early army more than anything, however, so even small bits of extra XP from every battle helps me recruit a bit faster in the long run.

That Pippin fight.. is that the one where he has about 10 units while your army size limit is still 4?  Or is it the earlier one where the other side starts with one cavalry unit in each corner of the map along with his infantry army?  I recall that divide & conquer was the order of the day on that latter one, since each of them advance rather slowly, so charging down separated cav units with your whole army one-by-one, until he cornerd you, was the easiest way.  The other battle where you're outnumbered about 3 or 4 to 1.. well... I started used the open campaign command after seeing that mess a couple times, and decided to go hunt down some easy pickings to build gold & xp to expand my forces with.

Actually, I think archers are more deadly in Northern Crusades than in KA, now.

I'm beginning to believe that infantry units are artificially prevented from running straight into melee'ing archers in this game. 

Many times lately it's come down to my infantry forces routing the AI's, but the AI always has a moderate-to-large amount of archers in their armies, and they are the last non-routed on the field.  But when I set my whole formation to engage automatically, and either tell them to run through those archers (thus initiating their own attack) or order each to attack an individual archer unit directly, and then, give them the run order - they slow down just short of the archer unit (to a walk) and just slowly slog towards the newly running archers.  I'm becoming convinced this is some kind of artificial handicap in the programming to make archers only approachable with cavalry.  My biggest complaint is that they'll separate enough to turn and unleash a few volleys at my walking troops, and steadily demoralize & wound them enough to make them eventually rout. 

Yes, that's right, my infantry steadily chasing archers off the field yet the archers are routing them, even in hot pursuit.  Much of the tac battles seems okay, but this behavior regarding archers has me scratching my head.  I guess it could be considered another artificial troop slow-down, like the one on the campaign map before reaching your destination,  except this time it costs you dearly.

No there is not routine like this in the game, I know because the battle mechanics are in metacode so can be read. Probably the slow donw because you start the charge too soon; infantry can run only for little space. ANyway attacck always the archers on their right side in parallel to a frontal attack, they cannot shoot on the right withoput turn completly.

Yes, but if I first walk my infantry towards them, and wait to give the run order later, then the archers still outrun my infantry (who still slow down short of their intended archer victims). 

I'm not necessarily complaining about archers outrunning my infantry, but that they even have enough time to regularly turn & pelt my boys with arrows - enough to break their morale and make them flee from the field if they've even seen a slight bit of combat previously in the whole battle. 

I'm just a bit sore at not being able to chase archers from the field with my melee units.  Perhaps my timing has to be perfect for this, so I'll keep trying.  The archers just seem to have it too easy in this case.  Having to perform a hammer & anvil on archer units, with your infantry, is a bit.. odd.

Let them finish the arrows at the maximum distance with thin ranks (they have at maximum 20 shoots), so after you can press them in a angle without risk

Not the best option I had in mind.  *shrug*

I may have figured out part of the infantry->archers problem.  When I order the infantry to attack, they end up stopping a short time after, thus allowing the archers to stop and kill them for awhile.  I've had to re-issue the attack orders and regularly babysit them when they're ordered to attack archers who are in auto-retreat (which often works way better for AI than mine )

If it's not intentional then there's some screwiness with the attack & pursue tac behavior in this case.  I keep having to re-issue the same attack orders to these guys because they stop - even when walking.

I'll just try keeping my army together, at long range, and weather the casualties and morale hits from the arrows until they run out, I guess.  Or until my cavalry runs them all down 1 by 1.    It seems like when I go into open formation ( to take less damage from the archer attacks) that my morale will drop even more and leads to my whole army eventually fleeing the field due to archer fire (where there are numerous enemy AI archers firing at them).  So I tend to keep them in normal separation for better morale.  Kinda defeats the purpose of having a wide formation to avoid all the arrows.

Okay Mitra, I popped your 1.5 mod into the game using JSGME and it's great.  Definitely toned down the overpowered archers some when firing into combats and all the other adjustments have definitely improved the tac combat.  The AI improvements were quickly noticeable too, along with getting rid of those annoying colored circles under the soldiers' feet.

I started a new campaign, to be sure, and the first few small battles have ran just fine (and better).

Thanks! 

Thanks. Waiting for eventual error feedback. Has been announced the patch 226 is in working, so I wait his release before proceed with other changes, because I will must replicate my previous ones in the new version.

Good news on a new patch, too!  I hope they take out that annoying army slowdown on the campaign map.

Are they going to implement any of your changes in this new one, too?  I guess that may be covered by an NDA so perhaps I'm not supposed to know if that were the case, anyway.

I just might have to break down and buy this. Been thinking about it for some time.

Originally Posted By Nefaro (18 FEB 2012 1:23pm)

Are they going to implement any of your changes in this new one, too? 

I don't know, sure 226 will work on correct the hardware problem but I still don't know what gameplay changes there will be.

Originally Posted By mitra (19 FEB 2012 2:27am)

Originally Posted By Nefaro (18 FEB 2012 1:23pm)

Are they going to implement any of your changes in this new one, too? 

 

I don't know, sure 226 will work on correct the hardware problem but I still don't know what gameplay changes there will be.

 

 

If nothing else.. ask them to pull that campaign map slowdown out, when nearing a destination.  It makes no sense and is just an annoyance.

I also wouldn't mind seeing some of the earlier level's xp requirements lowered, so that your army limits aren't restricting you to being quite so outnumbered for so long.  The early game's difficulty, in regards to this, is probably something that turns people away at first.   Money for purchasing replacements and buying new troops to fill those newly opened slots would still take time to get.

Originally Posted By Sol Invictus (18 FEB 2012 9:17pm)

I just might have to break down and buy this. Been thinking about it for some time.

Just keep in mind that the tac battles aren't TW.  They actually play out more like Field Of Glory in that once your soldiers have entered a melee, they're generally gonna be locked there until one unit or the other flees.  Unlike FOG, the archers can cause murderous morale 'damage' in a relatively short amount of time, so they're pretty nasty even when toned down some in Mitra's mod, when there's more than one shooting at you. While you won't see men dropping in droves from arrow hits, your units do suffer wounded men which cranks up the morale losses.  If a unit with wounded like that gets melee'd by a fresh infantry unit.. well it's all over before it began.

The early campaign difficulty of learning the ins & outs of the tac battles, along with having a lot of roaming enemy armies who just plain heavily outnumber you, gives it a steep difficulty curve to start off with.  That's probably scared some players off who've tried it.  I became discouraged a couple times, in a couple of the early campaign mission battles where you are outnumbered approximately 2-to-1.  I've had to restart some of those until getting through.  I suspect once you're past the early difficulties, and the campaign game is fully opened up (along with getting your leader enough levels to raise your army limits to respectable levels) then it'll go more smoothly.

If you guys keep on posting about this, I'm going to have to buy it. Mention of a further patch also partially fills my buy-meter.

I enjoy it.

Nefaro remember that even when locked in battle you have to keep giving them attack orders say coming in from the left or right etc, this brings into play those soldiers who are just standing around. Very rarely do I just le them get on with it. When you give another attack order you will see a red arrow showing the way the attack will go in, so if you see alot of soldiers doing nothing on the right give them an attack order going in from that side. They will then join in.

Another furstarting thing is I never really looked at the upgrade path, so found my self no way to get pikemen so I had to disband a troop and try again, infact I've been caught out twice now, each time losing a 1 star unit! Being limited to one militia is tough at first, plus no way can I afford the 1 sergeant unit, I'd rather just be able to have another militia. 

I haven't gone back to it yet as I know I have to fight Pippen and I'm in no way strong enough. 

Originally Posted By DCosta (19 FEB 2012 8:39am)

I enjoy it.

 

Nefaro remember that even when locked in battle you have to keep giving them attack orders say coming in from the left or right etc, this brings into play those soldiers who are just standing around. Very rarely do I just le them get on with it. When you give another attack order you will see a red arrow showing the way the attack will go in, so if you see alot of soldiers doing nothing on the right give them an attack order going in from that side. They will then join in.

This is good advice as I often see straggling infantry running past and wandering around a bit.  A similarly very important thing to remember is that when you give an attack order against a distant enemy unit, yours will stop when it reaches that targeted unit's destination unengaged.  This causes part of my headaches pursuing archers with infantry - I keep having to go back & re-issue an attack order every time my infantry reach the archers previous location, as those enemy archers are constantly 'kiting' when my men approach.  I'd rather the my units continue to pursue the enemy unit it's ordered to attack, indefinitely, instead of stopping all the time.  So some micromanagement will be required when pursuing. 

Another furstarting thing is I never really looked at the upgrade path, so found my self no way to get pikemen so I had to disband a troop and try again, infact I've been caught out twice now, each time losing a 1 star unit! Being limited to one militia is tough at first, plus no way can I afford the 1 sergeant unit, I'd rather just be able to have another militia. 

 

I haven't gone back to it yet as I know I have to fight Pippen and I'm in no way strong enough. 

Yes that's a tough part in the early campaign where those army restrictions really hurt.  Even if you can afford the one sergeant unit, it'll break your bank just paying for replacements after each battle, before you get a steady stream of gold.  I'd also rather have a cheaper unit at that point.  That's why I was asking for a lowering of the xp requirements between something like level 2 and 10 (?) or whenever you reach a possible 4 of the lowest types, to get over this campaign difficulty hump. 

Mitra:

Regarding your mod, I have 2 questions/requests:

1) Can you also get rid of the blue circles under your own men?  I've never liked these disco circles under each man's feet in these games as it kinda ruins the immersion IMO.  The flag shows enough info to tell where my unit is and if it's selected or not & isn't so visually invasive.

2) Can you adjust or even remove the forest movement restriction part of the mod?  After playing on a map that was nearly all forest terrain, I think that the forest movement penalties you've made are too much.  It looks like you've restricted everyone from running, and further restricted cavalry from trotting - thus lowering it's speed to walking infantry.  It has made the already dangerous archers nearly invincible on such maps.  I'd prefer the restrictions be removed due to this unbalancing effect.  I don't know if you could impose a small percentage decrease in the running speed of cavalry, instead, but it must not be a possibility if you had to prevent running. 

If you decide to leave the forest movement restrictions in, could you point me to where I can change that back?  Or include a second file without that modification to switch between?

I'm still enjoying your mod, just giving you some feedback on it.

I like the forest mod. It's more realsitic. What would be ebtter is if arrows where useless being fired into the forest. Cavalry should not eb able to charge in a  forest at all.

So if your fighting in a forest area you have to take just your foot units and leaver archers out aswell. 

Originally Posted By Nefaro (19 FEB 2012 9:57am)

 

1) Can you also get rid of the blue circles under your own men?  I've never liked these disco circles under each man's feet in these games as it kinda ruins the immersion IMO.  The flag shows enough info to tell where my unit is and if it's selected or not & isn't so visually invasive.

you can disable them from the game options: is the highlight parameter.

Originally Posted By Nefaro (19 FEB 2012 9:57am)
 

2) Can you adjust or even remove the forest movement restriction part of the mod?  After playing on a map that was nearly all forest terrain, I think that the forest movement penalties you've made are too much.  It looks like you've restricted everyone from running, and further restricted cavalry from trotting - thus lowering it's speed to walking infantry.  It has made the already dangerous archers nearly invincible on such maps.  I'd prefer the restrictions be removed due to this unbalancing effect.  I don't know if you could impose a small percentage decrease in the running speed of cavalry, instead, but it must not be a possibility if you had to prevent running. 

In reality the penalilties depends from the trees density, which penalize also the archers shooting: I have at least tree density level. I can raise the tree density level, because for the moment I based only on my experience. Anyway sometime can depend also from the ground type: there is some terrains which limit the velocity also out of forest.

Thanks for the feedback 

I forget from the tree density depends also the FOW distance so bigger the density shorter the distance the shooters see you.

When the density is a third level you shooters have a penality of 3 (on results based on 12 scale).  The actual density calculation is base on the number of trees in a range of 4 (a space more or less occupied by a little tree group in game maps. If you have more than 9 trees in this space the density is at the third level. Infnatyr stop do run only with third level. Cavalry go to trot with second level.

The reason I ask about changes to the forest movement impedence is because archers can still outrun everything.  So while they do less damage, they're still doing it unabated.  The previous rock-paper-scissors balance is tossed out when you can't reach them with even cavalry, much less infantry.  In the 1.5 mod, the cavalry will walk at a lazy infantry pace through woods, all the time.  I wouldn't expect the normal blitzing speed and long charges they have but that's just too slow even in forest IMO.

The suggestion of reducing the archer's damage to pretty much nil would also fix the balance in such cases.  But then it would make archers quite useless so that balance thing pops up again..  Perhaps lowering it a large amount further, but still have a little, would be better? 

I dunno.  I like how the archers are done in the game, in general, but they are really the awesome morale-killing shiz already, and can only be run down by cavalry unless some infantry gets extremely lucky and pins them against a rare cliff or something.   Any target but the most experienced (Knights and perhaps sergeants for short periods of time) will rout after kept under steady fire and they can never catch them, partially because an attack order against archers results in the attacker stopping on the spot the archers vacated on their approach - and get more volleys anyway. 

I'm a bit sad having to use half (or more) archer units in my armies just to fight fire with fire.  Is this how it should be?  I'm often seeing AI armies with two to three infantry and six or more archers & crossbowmen right now.  That's two-thirds of a whole army filled with Lepewpew.!  I'll just start going archer-heavy like it does, and put their line troops morale into the negative by the time they hit me.  Eye for an eye?  I fear this'll turn into Real Warfare 2: Northern Archers however.

I like all the other modifiers, such as more limited LOS, for the forest stuff.  It's just the nasty movement restrictions that throws it out of whack IMO.

Understood I will try to add a additional parameter for disable the forest factor for the movement

Originally Posted By mitra (19 FEB 2012 1:46pm)

Understood I will try to add a additional parameter for disable the forest factor for the movement

Thanks for listening to my pleading.

If you want to leave it in, just make a separate copy of the file without it, so we could choose which one to use.  That's probably the best option, putting the non-movement penalty version in a separate folder in the mod zip. 

So what percentage of your army do you prefer to be filled with archers & crossbowmen, once you've levelled up to get a big army?

Only reduce archers in forest terrian. Thats what I was asking for.

Originally Posted By DCosta (19 FEB 2012 6:48pm)

Only reduce archers in forest terrian. Thats what I was asking for.

Sounds like we might have a few different flavors.  Mitra's gonna have his work cut out for him, keeping us happy!

Yah mule!  Yah!