Hey, the sales make people who wouldn't ordinarily buy the game, do so... I mean, I don't know how many games I've grabbed at the 'super sales'.. that I haven't even touched!

Matrix/Slitherine has a wide variety of land titles. I've held off on my purchases of late and was lucky enough to score Panzer Corps for a fantastic price. I've bought WITE and BFTB at release prices and they just don't get much play, to be honest I've already have more time invested in Panzer Corps than the both of them. Going forward the only game I can see buying upon release is something that is naval based.

Originally Posted By BigBlueFleet

Matrix/Slitherine has a wide variety of land titles. I've held off on my purchases of late and was lucky enough to score Panzer Corps for a fantastic price. I've bought WITE and BFTB at release prices and they just don't get much play, to be honest I've already have more time invested in Panzer Corps than the both of them. Going forward the only game I can see buying upon release is something that is naval based.

off to paradox with you man

Oneday maybe Matrix will releaise that their pricing policy isn't really bringing in more money. So many times I've heard people say I'd buy that if it was cheaper with regarding a matrix games it's startling. Wher ein an age where people aren't willing to pay out lots of money for a game. The excuse of being an Indy is a no go as most Indy games are cheap, they don't cost god knows how much to make. Also the niche product thing isn't right either, if the games are cheap enough you'll get alot more poeple buying them as they are willing to take the risk, thus in the long run you will get more people into wargames and then sell more future products, blimey even us wargamers are willing to pay out on many wargames in case we don't like them and it's a waste of money so your definately not going to entice newbies to the genre. 

I bet BftB sales shot up when it went on sale. I reckon they have taken more money from that game in the sale than they have done over the last year. If that isn't telling them something I don't know what is.

Still we've had this discusion before and it gets no where.  

The market--especially retail options/prices/game delivery--has changed significantly in the last decade.  More games are available at much lower prices to US and international customers.  This makes many specialty wargames "overpriced" compared to other PC game options.  On top of this the old wargaiming houses do not respond to changing markets or age of their offerings--a siginficant problem in an ever improving tech environment.

In the last 4 or 5 year, the economy and (to a lesser extent) changed personal circumstances (e.g. retirement, growing family responsibilities, divorce[s]) have caused a decline in discreationary income for new "toys".

All of this makes higher priced games less attactive--at least for me and many others.  Some, like Matrix, have seen the market differently.  This is reflected (in part) by their pricing of several titles at super premium price points in the last couple of years or so.

Still we've had this discusion before and it gets no where.  

That's because those of us on forums don't amount to a hill of beans in sales, regular or bargain bin. We like to think we make a BIGGGGGGGGG difference but seriously you can talk to any publisher or producer and they will tell you how insignificant forum posters are except for "feedback". We don't even account for 1% of the total sales. It's fun to think we make a difference and that our opinions really matter but they don't really matter except to ourselves and a few choice friends that happen to be on the same forums. That's why getting upset because someone doesn't like your opinion about their favorite game is really silly. It just doesn't matter in the big world of things.

Originally Posted By Wolverine101

Still we've had this discusion before and it gets no where.  

 

That's because those of us on forums don't amount to a hill of beans in sales, regular or bargain bin. We like to think we make a BIGGGGGGGGG difference but seriously you can talk to any publisher or producer and they will tell you how insignificant forum posters are except for "feedback". We don't even account for 1% of the total sales. It's fun to think we make a difference and that our opinions really matter but they don't really matter except to ourselves and a few choice friends that happen to be on the same forums. That's why getting upset because someone doesn't like your opinion about their favorite game is really silly. It just doesn't matter in the big world of things.

Well, and in that vein you can say the same thing about our discussions on politics, world events, etc.....

Pretty much what is said here is simple discussion/debate/argument among mostly like-minded people. We might enjoy the discussion and hearing one another's opinion on any matter of things, including games, but no, our opinions aren't going to shake the world, be it on politics, economics or wargames.

Still, it IS our little pond and I kind of enjoy it 

Originally Posted By Steelgrave

Originally Posted By Wolverine101

Still we've had this discusion before and it gets no where.  

 

That's because those of us on forums don't amount to a hill of beans in sales, regular or bargain bin. We like to think we make a BIGGGGGGGGG difference but seriously you can talk to any publisher or producer and they will tell you how insignificant forum posters are except for "feedback". We don't even account for 1% of the total sales. It's fun to think we make a difference and that our opinions really matter but they don't really matter except to ourselves and a few choice friends that happen to be on the same forums. That's why getting upset because someone doesn't like your opinion about their favorite game is really silly. It just doesn't matter in the big world of things.

 

Well, and in that vein you can say the same thing about our discussions on politics, world events, etc.....

 

Pretty much what is said here is simple discussion/debate/argument among mostly like-minded people. We might enjoy the discussion and hearing one another's opinion on any matter of things, including games, but no, our opinions aren't going to shake the world, be it on politics, economics or wargames.

 

Still, it IS our little pond and I kind of enjoy it 

Oh I agree with what you are saying Steel. I'm just saying that there's some that take things too seriously about things said on a forum or things not changing because some have said it a whole bunch of times on forums. I'll always bet nickels to $$ that if something does change drastically in a game it's not because someone brought it up on a forum but because the developers and publishers had it in mind long before it got to the forum point. Now with something like Starforce where the WORLD got involved in it I think the forum members made a difference but how often does something like that happen? Is UBIsoft cutting off their have to be online to play DRM because of their forum members postings? Are DRM schemes dwindling because of forum members adversity to it? Just doesn't matter, we're a small force in a world of power and money.

Originally Posted By Wolverine101

 

 

That's because those of us on forums don't amount to a hill of beans in sales, regular or bargain bin. We like to think we make a BIGGGGGGGGG difference but seriously you can talk to any publisher or producer and they will tell you how insignificant forum posters are except for "feedback". We don't even account for 1% of the total sales. It's fun to think we make a difference and that our opinions really matter but they don't really matter except to ourselves and a few choice friends that happen to be on the same forums. That's why getting upset because someone doesn't like your opinion about their favorite game is really silly. It just doesn't matter in the big world of things.

The actual posters are a very small part of sales, but there are a huge number of lurkers on any forum.  Far far more than people with logins.  As you can imagine, it's where they get nearly all their info on whatever product they're checking out.  So us few gabby blabberers tend to influence (and relate with) a much larger, silent crowd.

I'm not arguing anyone's point.  Just making an observation about the relatively huge amounts of lurkers, in comparison.

The views of forums become more important as more people use digital downloads.

Since its hard to gauge a product by pictures others opinions are valued.

To really see this effect properly is via a forum such as trip advisor which can have a big affect on small hotels or restaurants in tourist areas.

Since this is in effect a social network I am surprised that the wargamer or perhaps a new venture has not explored these spaces more.

Perhaps they have but it failed to take off. I am linked to spelks facebook and it is interesting to follow but the updates are sporadic as I would expect from a one man hobbyist. I also liked The Wargamer on facebook but can never remember a posting.

It would save all those logins - maybe its not that practical.

Originally Posted By SiTheSly

 

 It would save all those logins - maybe its not that practical.

 

I prefer forums to any other social media, still.  Perhaps I'm just so used to the various forum software, but I find all the new internet social media's web interfaces are absolutely terrible.   Many parts aren't very self-explanatory and using extra features is like training a seal to jump through three extra hoops.   Very unintuitive and feels quite makeshift.   I'm not a PC dumby, either.  I often wonder if some parts are intentionally made that way.

I think forums are a valid source of information for producers (if they choose to use it). Yes, you are correct that in absolute number terms the possible sales are insignificant, but what you have here is a well informed (wargame -wise) "focus group". Many companies consult what they perceive as well informed focus groups both before, during & after sales launches, thus it would seem prudent for Matriix/Paradox etc to make use of this resource, and possibly ignore it at thier peril - NOT because of direct sales they will lose, but for the indication of how the wind is blowing out there.

Originally Posted By phredd1 (11 DEC 2011 1:06am)

Okay, I have been hit with the 2x4 often enough to finally learn the lesson: Do NOT buy a game when it is first released. Why? Because with the possible exception of HPS, every other company is going to drop the price and soon. Panzer Corps, less than 6 months after release goes from $60 to $20. ( Yes, I know it was just a special sale, but I haven't heard that the price will return to pre-sale level at the end of the sale.) WitE has $30 off its previous price, and its been out less than a year. Even GOG is getting into the act.

 

Sure, sales are nice, but such big price drops aren't rewarding your faithful followers who see such large reductions soon after they've paid full boat. I don't know if an Occupy Matrix-type action is going to solve anything, but it can't hurt to try.  Seriously, though, I'm going to contain myself from any more release date purchases and wait. Yeah, I'm a little bitter.

Actually, I'm more than a little bitter, and when I found this article, I'd thought I'd toss it out for all you unsympathetic types to view........................

http://www.livescience.com/18891-prices-shoppers-mad.html

"...and lower their overall prices."

I understand the psychology, but I don't sympathize. 

This specific study, which focuses on a very specific sector, fashion clothing, contradicts years of studies, experience, and basic economics. Differentiating the market has been one of the foundations of suceessful marketing for at least a century. 

Also, after looking at the study, it raises way more questions than it answers, and claims for, far, far,far,far more applicability than the data shows. 

One of the main problems with the study, as far as applicability to games and this thread are concerned, I emphasize one amongst many, is that it is a study of RETAILERS, not developers or producers. 

If Steam, for example, refused to ever have a sale or discount on a game, while Gamersgate often had sales and discounts on the same game, than of course people will buy the game cheaper. They will also check first with gamersgate whenever they want to buy a game to see if it is offered cheaper there.

Breaking News: Study discovers that consumers of identical product prefer it cheaper!

This is different from companies like Matrix, for example, who are their own retailer. Using time to differentiate the market with periodic sales targeting further down the demand curve is basic marketing and pure profit.

I would wonder what it is about a person's psychology that they would condemn the good, smart decisions of other consumers and producers, rather than adopt their own behavior to take advantage of these decisions themselves. 

Originally Posted By son_of_montfort (11 DEC 2011 7:57pm)

Originally Posted By bboyer66

 The Wargamer. The only forum where people bitch about low prices.

 

 

As usual someone comes along and says what I wanted to say, but in fewer words.

Such pricing models are GOOD BUSINESS, IMHO.  Those able to afford early purchase REWARD Game R & D entrepreneurs and subsequent inevitable price reductions return the Payment-in-Kind.  It's a Pay-It-Forward type of sowing and reaping generating free word-of-mouth advertising.  All this grumbling and complaining about saving money and low-priced games makes me think about how much money I can save if I go buy these games now.  See ya' later-- I got'ta go buy some games...

I would wonder what it is about a person's psychology that they would condemn the good, smart decisions of other consumers and producers, rather than adopt their own behavior to take advantage of these decisions themselves.

Cicerno, I can't help you here. As previously stated, the 2x4s have worked and my behavior has adapted.....that being said, I still don't consider those decisions I have to live with as either good, smart, or fair. You can make me play, but you can't make me like it.

Early adopters of technology pay full retail.

It is the same for video games. A must-have title for me would mean a first day purchase.

A lot of people are like that.

But..given the complexity of modern games, I am increasingly hesitant to pull the trigger on a day one purchase.

I recently purchased Crusader Kings 2, but ONLY after it had been out a week or so, just to get a feel for the stability, and the need for patches.

The fanboys, and the hype machine for new products has fried me before, badly. Very badly. I have a ton of games that weren't on my hard drive for more than a month..they suck, they always sucked, and they always WILL suck.

There are a few companies whose products I trust, completely. Slitherine, Blizzard, and a few others.

I wish all companies would fully test and vet their products prior to placing them up for sale..but it doesn't work this way.

Originally Posted By phredd1 (8 MAR 2012 8:35pm)

I would wonder what it is about a person's psychology that they would condemn the good, smart decisions of other consumers and producers, rather than adopt their own behavior to take advantage of these decisions themselves.

 

Cicerno, I can't help you here. As previously stated, the 2x4s have worked and my behavior has adapted.....that being said, I still don't consider those decisions I have to live with as either good, smart, or fair. You can make me play, but you can't make me like it.

Sorry. I actually had a very similar issue more on my mind than yours. 

From an economics point of view this is what you are buying:

1. The game;

2. At your earliest convenience.

Look at the sales price of the game as the price of the actual game.

Look at the 'at your convenience' as an additional amount that you pay in order to play the game when you want to play it, ie when it comes out or when the impulse hits you.

Or, from the other perspective, the price of having to wait for a sale is the equal to the discount from the 'full price'.

Also think of the shelf-life of a game. For most games, unless it is really one of the classics like Darklands, there is a period measured in months before the game becomes obsolete, either from a better version, or from advances in game technology. 

Let's say that a specific game has a shelf-life of 30 months. If a person has to wait 6 months or a year before a sale to get it at discount, they are really only getting 18-24 months of a game as opposed to the 30 months if bought at launch. 

Originally Posted By cicerno (9 MAR 2012 11:24am)

Originally Posted By phredd1 (8 MAR 2012 8:35pm)

I would wonder what it is about a person's psychology that they would condemn the good, smart decisions of other consumers and producers, rather than adopt their own behavior to take advantage of these decisions themselves.

 

Cicerno, I can't help you here. As previously stated, the 2x4s have worked and my behavior has adapted.....that being said, I still don't consider those decisions I have to live with as either good, smart, or fair. You can make me play, but you can't make me like it.

 

Sorry. I actually had a very similar issue more on my mind than yours. 

 

From an economics point of view this is what you are buying:

 

1. The game;

2. At your earliest convenience.

 

Look at the sales price of the game as the price of the actual game.

Look at the 'at your convenience' as an additional amount that you pay in order to play the game when you want to play it, ie when it comes out or when the impulse hits you.

 

Or, from the other perspective, the price of having to wait for a sale is the equal to the discount from the 'full price'.

 

Also think of the shelf-life of a game. For most games, unless it is really one of the classics like Darklands, there is a period measured in months before the game becomes obsolete, either from a better version, or from advances in game technology. 

 

Let's say that a specific game has a shelf-life of 30 months. If a person has to wait 6 months or a year before a sale to get it at discount, they are really only getting 18-24 months of a game as opposed to the 30 months if bought at launch. 

 

 

Unfortunately some sellers don't agree with this. Matrix for example have several "obsolete" games (ie: For Liberty, Forge of Freedom) on sale at original price. they will not change this price, thus I would imagine they will sell very few games now.

I can only speak for myself but I bought Wars In America 2 in preference to For Liberty, and AGEODS Civil War in preference to Forge of Freedom - a decision basec purely on pricing. I have bought Matrix titles at full price (Decisive Campaigns & TAOW) so I'm not averse to paying full price, & I'm not arguing they are similar games, but they're close enough for the time period for my needs - thus one seller has my cash the other doesn't - an astute seller would be asking why, and acting accordingly.

I remember being frustrated with the ultramarines movie releasing a blu-ray version soon after release and re-charging for it.

But yeah, I feel for you. It is frustrating to be the most supportive when others wait and get bargain bin prices that do not help the devs.

The problem with games I buy is that a lot of the time I have to buy early to catch the multiplayer WAVE at its peak. What really is a little disturbing though is the increasingly "whimsical" nature of online multiplayer games. We are getting so many free ones now that mean once they become unpopular the servers will just come down and all of the hard work people put in will be for nothing.

I guess that goes for steam too, but really at least with steam I would hope they would release all of the games of DRM if they went broke.

But honestly with single player, I have started to wait. CMBN's current expansion being a good example. I will wait for a sale on that one.

I am dissappointed that the engine is not written for more than one CPU which would have made a huge difference to the "look" of the game as well. In a desert environ it looked ok, but in a woodland one its pretty ugly terrain and movement\performance is a pain.

Honestly though its like playing the stock markets with PC game prices. Its good that it is too. Its a lot better than the old days when things were permanently $100 with no hope of getting your fence sitter friends into them.