I just want to say that I have no issue with what Jarhead said.  In fact that in many regards, he is correct.  That it is fine to disagree with a game developer, dislike the direction of development, be upset by game design choices or the condition of release but when that trends away from constructive criticism into ad hominen attack it becomes disruptive and not productive.  I also agree that we as a community have become overly negative at times in the sense that there is a lack of common courtesy and civility and attack the industry at seemingly every turn and also our fellow forum members.  And I can say that I've been as much a part of that sort of discourse as anyone. 

This is a great community.  The knowledge, experience, passion of the members is an asset to all those who frequent the site.  That is what should be remembered here.  I know that I've bought or not bought games based on the opinions expressed here not by the known reviewers alone, but by the average armchair general who takes the time to post an impression, aar, screenshot of a game.  The other subforums where movies, books, current events, politics, general absurdity of life, personal experiences contribute to a great online home.  I know that there are days that a visit to the site can make my day a little better. 

Also FWIW as I was posting my must point system response, I was imitating Larry Merchant the entire time.  It was meant to be humorous and not an attack on Jarhead.  Jarhead is a good man who has done a lot for this site and community as far as I'm concerned.

Regards.

I would just be happy if Paradox just put Delete Saved Game buttons into their games.

Originally Posted By cicerno

Jarhead,

You seem to have an extreme reading comprehension disability. 

 

Here are my points:

 

Disagreeing with the business decision to abandon the AGEOD engine and replacing it with the Clauswitz engine is a valid complaint for people who enjoyed the AGEOD engine;

The criticism of the decisions are directed towards the corporate entity of Paradox;

Criticism of the critics, mostly by you, are personal attacks.

 

So you respond to this by.......

making an incredibly immature, personal attack and then cut and paste a bunch of quotes which do absolutely nothing to advance your argument, which I guess, in fairness, is that people who disagree with you are stupid, infantile, whatever.

 

Seriously?

 

Are you really trying to argue that when an extremely small company that has always used a particular engine, AGEOD, announces that they are making their next game based on the engine of the company that just bought them, that it is not 'rational, level-headed or adult' to conclude that they are not going to make games based on their orginal engine?

 

This is a use of the word rational that I am not familiar with. Perhaps you could try to explain, without your gratuitous personal attacks, why to conclude the obvious from the evidence is 'irrational' but that concluding the opposite of what the evidence shows is somehow rational. 

 

I note that all of the criticisms that you posted are vaild criticisms. You seem excessively offended by others holding a different opinion that yours. Perhaps if you are going to hold opinions at odds with the evidence you would do better to present arguments, weak as they might be, rather than just attack.

 

I would also urge you to go ahead and type the letter 'e' in your posts. I'm never a stickler for spelling and grammar, but if the gist of  your argument is that people who disagree with you are stupid,or whatever, than go ahead and try to spell correctly. 

 

No comment Cicerno.  The record in this thread, as well as the hatred and vitriol in your post speaks for itself.

There has been some concern expressed about the next AGE engined game being developed by another team that is not Phil & Phil.

Did you know that RUS was not developed by Phil & Phil? And it is, IMO, the very best AGE engined game to date. I challenge anyone who has their doubts to spend this weekend playing RUS and come back and tell me that it sucks, and lacks the magic of AACW or NCP1.

If the same dev team that did RUS gets to do the new AGE game this year, I'm not worried in the slightest. And if it's not that same team, then let's hope that the Phil's have chosen wisely and the AGE engine is in good hands.

It's not the same team as did RUS.  PhilThib stated that on the Ageod boards.

Ok, understood. My point was that the AGE engine is so good, that it doesn't take the mighty talents of the Phils to produce an excellent game with it.

No I understand Slick and I agree.  Until the team, the game and the future developments are announced in detail everything else is speculation beyond the continued use of the AGE engine.  I have the greatest hope that the new team along with community activity in the project gives the AGE designed games a bright and long future.

Originally Posted By IanC

I would just be happy if Paradox just put Delete Saved Game buttons into their games. 

There is one in Crusader Kings II

Having played all of AGEOD's games based on the Athena engine (except PoN & some a lot more than others) I can't imagine they won't make a good game regardless. And if they involve some of their great modding talent it gives me great hope. I am looking forward to whatever they produce. And the game is a long way off.

My understanding is that AGEOD has been bought by Paradox & it is not surprising considering sales of PoN that Paradox would get them to go in another direction. Besides we still get another Athena game too. The best of outcomes to my way of thinking. I guess I am not as cynical as many here. Now, I might just fire up RoP in the meantime... or maybe WiA or AACW or NC1 or even RuS... what talent!

I feel it's a shame NC2 is going to use the Paradox engine. Paradox should have released a Napoleonic game using that engine but not used the Ageod team, not sure why they need that team to do it. Also they shouldn't call it NC2. It should have been named differently so no connection is made with the previous game. I also hate the realtime aspect. Not sure who had that brainwave but a realtime Grand Strategy really makes no sense to me. The scale is just way to big. Simultanous Turns would have been far better.

I loved the old AGEOD Maps, though I thought ProN map was nowhere near as good as previous games. The art style of the older games was\is unsurpassed in wargames. To be honest I feel it is a day to mourn in the wargame world and it was a great shame that the first game they released under Paradox was ProN. The first game they made using their engine which had alot of problems.

I feel I've no need to wait and see the game before I make a judgement as we already have countless games using that engine. I honestly wish Paradox would now finish it off and start making a NEW game, rather than the same one with new bits added and different graphics etc as it covers a different era. In my opinion it doesn't matter a talented lot like AGEOD are working on it. It's using the usual old Paradox engine and thats enough to know.

Also it seems from what was said that a mod team is going to make any new Athena games. To me that smacks of some kind of deal agread with AGEOD and Paradox as I expect AGEOD really want to keep their loyal following happy and I expect Paradox wanted them to scrap it alltogether and work on their engine. I will recreate how I think a conversation went..

Ageod: "look we will do your games from now on, but can we also carry on making games with our old engine".

Paradox "No. Your working on ours".

Ageod "Oh erm..how about we get a mod team to do it so it doesn't take us away from our work, and the outlay wont be that much"

Parardox "OK. A mod team it is. However don't let me see you working on it when your supposed to be working on ours".

Ageod " Yes Sir".

Anyway thats my opinion. I'm also not an Ageod fanboy. I found the combat in their games not to more liking. Though they where very good at what they did. 

Originally Posted By DCosta (23 JAN 2012 2:48am)
Also it seems from what was said that a mod team is going to make any new Athena games. To me that smacks of some kind of deal agread with AGEOD and Paradox as I expect AGEOD really want to keep their loyal following happy and I expect Paradox wanted them to scrap it alltogether and work on their engine. I will recreate how I think a conversation went..

Not really.

It was more of a realisation that

AGEOD staff is limited. They are 3 people, 1 designer and 2 programmers.

Instead of spending 25-35% of their development time on updating engines, improving it and maintaining it, we can cut that time, and have their focus on 100% gamelogic.

We have 2 external teams working on Clausewitz, 3 internal teams and now the AGEOD people working on it, giving a lot of synergy effects on having an optimised game-engine.

I still think it's a mistake calling the game NC2.  It isn't NC2, it's the first Napoleonic Paradox engine game. The only game I've liked is CK and I look forward to CK2, all the others though are just not my thing at all.

AGEOD's beautiful artwork is a massive asset that could have enriched the Paradox enigne.

I can't add much but to point out the language used in the Paradox engine is more powerful and CAN result in better A.I. and overall ofer options the AGEOD engine cannot---the switch to realtime is another matter-- I suppose the best judge is to wait and see what they can do with it. New engine and new language means learning curve to the team-and this can have a bad effect in a narrow development window-when in reality a year or more might really be needed to LEARN the in's and out's ---so I'd expect bugs in the least---and the first game to suffer somewhat but improve as the team becomes more familiar with all the new stuff.

I know I spent more than a year going from A7 to Unity- which meant going from c-lite to c# as well as learning all new engines features and how you add assets and so on. I still am learning after 2 years. But I have no release date--no time limit-- whereas here time is limited---it's gonna hurt no matter what. As i recall the AGEOD engine uses an old language-can't remember what--something like Pearl or somesuch--and going to C from that isn't easy. The paradoc engine uses c plus LUA for modding--the latter sucks but the formal is pretty damn powerful. I expect great things once the team gets it down....say in 4 or 5 years realistically.

Now they are bound to state a programmer can learn a new language in 30 days or so--and in general that is true--but to master the language takes years. There's more to it than syntax. Method takes experience. You can't shave time off that.

Originally Posted By ghostryder (23 JAN 2012 6:26am)

I know I spent more than a year going from A7 to Unity- which meant going from c-lite to c# as well as learning all new engines features and how you add assets and so on. I still am learning after 2 years. But I have no release date--no time limit-- whereas here time is limited---it's gonna hurt no matter what.

Are you a game developer, ghostryder?

Originally Posted By Johan (23 JAN 2012 4:52am)

Originally Posted By DCosta (23 JAN 2012 2:48am)
Also it seems from what was said that a mod team is going to make any new Athena games. To me that smacks of some kind of deal agread with AGEOD and Paradox as I expect AGEOD really want to keep their loyal following happy and I expect Paradox wanted them to scrap it alltogether and work on their engine. I will recreate how I think a conversation went..

 

Not really.

 

It was more of a realisation that

 

AGEOD staff is limited. They are 3 people, 1 designer and 2 programmers.

 

Instead of spending 25-35% of their development time on updating engines, improving it and maintaining it, we can cut that time, and have their focus on 100% gamelogic.

 

We have 2 external teams working on Clausewitz, 3 internal teams and now the AGEOD people working on it, giving a lot of synergy effects on having an optimised game-engine.

 

 

 

 

so you are confirming that the athena engine is dead and will not be updated?

Originally Posted By beatoangelico (23 JAN 2012 7:50am)

so you are confirming that the athena engine is dead and will not be updated?

Originally Posted By ghostryder (23 JAN 2012 6:26am)

Now they are bound to state a programmer can learn a new language in 30 days or so--and in general that is true--but to master the language takes years. There's more to it than syntax. Method takes experience. You can't shave time off that.

True.. but one of the devs is an experienced c++ programmer already.

Are you a game developer, ghostryder?

I am independantly developing one yes. Last "Job" as a programmer was a couple years ago from a developer quite well known here--and to add to the discussion they were using a language I was not familiar with. I was given 30 days to learn it.

Now-programming has a method that generally can be used across multiple languages-so you can still think as a programmer and do it-but my comments on mastering it still hold true. i was constantly using methods used from the language i was used to in the new language which were not the best way to do things. I had to consciously unlearn the old to grasp the new-and no matter what 'time' was really the only thing you have to master one.

Take hanging drywall. now if you do not know how to do it-you can go buy a book and learn and do your own drywall. But it will never be as good as a pro job who's done it 20 years. there's tricks and teqnigues only experience brings. For example the book will say, "sand the joint compound x amount of times between coats"---okay. It works-but sanding also fills your house with dust-that gets into everything. A pro won't sand-he'll use a wet sponge that does the same thing as sanding without causing the mess of the dust. The book doesn't mention it--but the pro has learned from experience a better method. Programming is a lot like that--there's multiple ways to solve the problem and only experience can teach the best.

I expect then multiple delays-which only Paradox will grant so many--and in general the first game to be a learning experience. It doesn't mean the game won't be good- but 3 games down the road your see them doing something differently because of what they learned-a better and quicker way, or better and more accurate and so on as they begin to master both the engine and the language.

edit: i noted Johan has added they already know C++--so that is good-they just need to learn the engine. That can be done in a couple weekends really. Knowing that I would expect an experienced c programmer can use the more powerful features of the language that they never had with the old one-and logic would say everything should be better.

Originally Posted By Slick Wilhelm (23 JAN 2012 8:04am)

Originally Posted By beatoangelico (23 JAN 2012 7:50am)

so you are confirming that the athena engine is dead and will not be updated?

 

so tell me what that means: "

Instead of spending 25-35% of their development time on updating engines, improving it and maintaining it, we can cut that time, and have their focus on 100% gamelogic."

The AGE engine was ageing because it was not possible to stay up to date on everything with basically one full time dev on it (that would be me), that's what Johan is saying with the need to spend one third of the time in pure engine features (in opposition to adding game logic and high level content and rules).

So true, moving to a new engine is not something trivial, on the other end, we don't have to spend time on low level coding, this is already there. How do you say in English? A taken for a given? (this is a French saying badly translated, sorry  ).

As for the future of AGE, the 3 guys working on project Hello Kitty (or is it idpispod? I never remember the name they give to their work ahem) can do what they want with the code (in the frame of one single project) but I think what they want is mostly adding their own gameplay content and data, not switching the engine to multithreading or having a 3D projected map... I can be wrong, sure, but AGE is running rather fast for operational games anyway... So, no the engine is not dead, but the Ageod team is not working on it.

To Ghostryder: AGE is written in Delphi. There is a 2012 version of Delphi which is just out. Want the name of a software which is running this (how you did qualify it? old?  ) language? Skype...

http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/skype_delphi_uk_job.html

if you are of the curious type.

Originally Posted By Pocus (23 JAN 2012 10:27am)

The AGE engine was ageing because it was not possible to stay up to date on everything with basically one full time dev on it (that would be me), that's what Johan is saying with the need to spend one third of the time in pure engine features (in opposition to adding game logic and high level content and rules).

 

What i was saying in the Paradox board is that i don't understand why Paradox does not want to work on 2 different engines at the same time. It's clear you cannot make a new AGE engine by yourself (AGEOD) but along with Paradox World it should be possible and having a real-time and a turn-based engine would only benefit Paradox imho as it would offer much more options.

A very enlightening post by PhilThib from their AGEOD news forum, posted yesterday:

Just back from Sweden, I have three quick remarks to add to all those interesting debates and exchanges of views

A - Our NCP2 will be a great game, I am sure and all our energy goes into it. Most of our know-how and AGEOD's specifics will go into this product and we'll do our best to make use of the new engine advantages (not a PON-like waiting contest )

B - I cant tell more yet on the new AGE game, but the theme and era won't be obscure and lots of players will love it. Franciscus had good points here...

C - Don't expect - for the moment - an AGE game with wars with frontlines (such as WW1 and the likes), the AGE engine cannot handle them with satisfaction right now. Later, when fixed, may be....those who played Drang Nach Osten on RUS will understand...so no WW1/WW2 yet

Thanks

 

The user "Franciscus" speculated that the game will have to cover a era that will be as popular, or close to as popular, as the US Civil War. He mentiones WW2, Ancient Rome, Alexander, Japan or maybe Medieval Europe as the only sure-fire possibilities, which PhilThib seems to concur with.

Based on his comments to not expect WWI or WWII yet, it looks like the new AGE game will be either Acient Rome, Alexander the Great, Feudal Japan or Medieval Europe.

So much for my hopes for an Anglo-Zulu AGE title.

am i right in thinking Eisenhower is still the cheeky hint for game 2? and its not WW2?

I'm not really following here.  O.K., NC2 will use the Paradox engine.  And people are mourning the death of the AGE Engine.  If that is true, why is Phil T.  talking about a new AGE game?

Originally Posted By Johnnie (23 JAN 2012 12:26pm)

I'm not really following here.  O.K., NC2 will use the Paradox engine.  And people are mourning the death of the AGE Engine.  If that is true, why is Phil T.  talking about a new AGE game?

They way I'm following this so far is:

- AGEOD team is now moving over to work on the Clauswitz engine. No new ventures for AGE under AGEOD.

- The AGE engine is being turned over to 3rd parties/modders to make the next game (Philippe said they are "mostly adding their own gameplay content and data" for the new AGE game)