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Topic: Gender neutral child - is it right

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All Forums : [GENERAL] : General Discussion > Gender neutral child - is it right
27 JAN 2012 at 6:35pm

destraex

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2089474/Beck-Laxton-Kieran-Cooper-reveal-sex-gender-neutral-child-Sasha.html

 

I like the idea of "religion neutral child" but I am not sure about "gender neutral child".

Biologically its a fact, however many deny that mentally it is a fact. I am ok with accepting that mental development is something

that can go either way. But the real question is where parents fit into all of this. Are parents supposed to nurture and guide a child

or are we supposed to let them go it alone?


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27 JAN 2012 at 7:14pm

stophro

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Whoever came up with this and thought it was a good idea is once again proof that human beings are idiots.  Gender is a fact.  As much as you call a child with a penis, "her", does not change their gender.  If you wish to teach your child that the traditionally assigned roles of male and female do not apply to them, they are setting their child up for hardship and confusion.  And your supposed "superiority" in implementing said program should qualify you for an a$$ whooping by every parent who has to tell THEIR child not to make fun of "it" because "its" parents don't believe their precious child should be straitjacketed into a gender role because of biology.


 

 

 


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28 JAN 2012 at 12:30am

destraex

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There is a huge argument on the wargamerAU about this and most posts are the opposite of yours i'm afraid stophro.

The people on wargamerau do not really play wargames so much as games workshop. They are mostly a generation or two less than people here at the wargamer as a rule. This also means a lot have more "modern" UNI views indoctrinated into them.

 

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=130662&st=0

You have to be a member to read it.


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28 JAN 2012 at 3:42am

Martok

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I'm absolutely with stophro on this.  Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina, and that's all there is to it.  To deny that which is obvious is foolish at best. 

 

People who raise a "gender neutral" child may be well-meaning, but all they're doing is setting up their kid for confusion and emotional turmoil. 

 

 


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28 JAN 2012 at 8:03am

stophro

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Originally Posted By destraex (28 JAN 2012 12:30am)

There is a huge argument on the wargamerAU about this and most posts are the opposite of yours i'm afraid stophro.

The people on wargamerau do not really play wargames so much as games workshop. They are mostly a generation or two less than people here at the wargamer as a rule. This also means a lot have more "modern" UNI views indoctrinated into them.

 

http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=130662&st=0

You have to be a member to read it.

 

While I can appreciate that there are differing views, I have to believe that anyone who holds them has a) never raised a child or b) is idealist enough to believe that this is a good idea.  In either case, the person believeing this does not have to suffer the consequences of their convictions, their child does.  And the years of verbal and emotional and yes, maybe even physical, abuse that these gender neutral children will suffer at the hands of their peers are crimes that the parents should be charged with and have to suffer themselves.  And for the record, I am 41 years old.  Too old for "modern" UNI, but not so old that I qualify for disability.

 


 

 

 


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28 JAN 2012 at 8:44am

Besilarius

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Back around 1970, there was a noticeable group of parents and people involved in putting out parenting information, that one must never tell their child "No".

The thought behind this seemed to be that it stunted a child's curiousity, kept their personalities from developing to be independent, etc.

The fact that we all have to be able to handle failure, that there are limits, that there are safety reasons involved in not crossing against the lights, seemed irrelevant to these folks.

There are always folks who think they have the key to growing better people. 

The lack of objectivity and grounding in the real world, has never stopped them.


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28 JAN 2012 at 8:58am

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I hope I treat my children with the respect they deserve, and have allowed them to develop in accordance with their wishes and abilities. However, children more than anyone need some guidance and, for want of a better word, rules, on how to approach the world. These parents will probably leave their child confused and looking foolish.

There's nothing wrong with being either sex, but its not a choice, its a fact. They should live with it, as most certainly their child will have to, when it finally stops being shielded from reality.



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28 JAN 2012 at 11:35am

Steelgrave

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Originally Posted By Besilarius (28 JAN 2012 8:44am)

There are always folks who think they have the key to growing better people. 

The lack of objectivity and grounding in the real world, has never stopped them.

 

Very, very well put, Besilarius!

 

 


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28 JAN 2012 at 12:21pm

DCosta

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Originally Posted By stophro (27 JAN 2012 7:14pm)

Whoever came up with this and thought it was a good idea is once again proof that human beings are idiots.  Gender is a fact.  As much as you call a child with a penis, "her", does not change their gender.  If you wish to teach your child that the traditionally assigned roles of male and female do not apply to them, they are setting their child up for hardship and confusion.  And your supposed "superiority" in implementing said program should qualify you for an a$$ whooping by every parent who has to tell THEIR child not to make fun of "it" because "its" parents don't believe their precious child should be straitjacketed into a gender role because of biology.

 

Unless the child is born with both. Whcih can be a terrible situation for both parents and the child. It also happens alot. 

 

Remember we all start off as female in the womb (hence thats why men have nipples). 

 

 



Last edited by DCosta : 28 JAN 2012 12:22pm
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28 JAN 2012 at 1:12pm

Keunert

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there is an incredible great novel about this topic: Middlesex by Jeffrey Euginides. (hermaphrodite during the seventies) the book is one of the best books i read in the last years.

 

i happen to 'know' a female that changed to a man as an adult. a gay man and lives with another gay? man and they do have a son that was born naturally. but this ex girl now man told me that there are lots of men and women that never feel at home with their sex and chose to change their gender, even though they will be outsiders from then on, as most will notice that there is something strange about them.

 

i am sure that there is more to this than penis=man vagina=women. at least to a minority among our society.


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28 JAN 2012 at 1:57pm

Centurion40

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If, as an adult, a man choses to live his life as a female (and vice versa), he/she should be free to do so.  But the child issue is another thing entirely.


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28 JAN 2012 at 3:15pm

danlongman

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I was born in the 50's.  I had a male friend named Beverly.  A fine masculine name

in some places but not in Prairie Canada in The Goode Olde Dayes when men were men etc. etc.

The sh*t that guy put up with on a daily basis made me wonder why he didn't murder his

parents.  He seemed to get on with it okay but i know he had some moments of self-contained

fury since he did mention what a burden it was.  And I thought it was bad sharing a first name

with my Dad......the things people do to their kids never cease to amaze.  All I ever did was provide

them with a demented father and some unsavoury political views.


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28 JAN 2012 at 4:03pm

MohawkDaddy

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Doesn't seem "neutral" to me, looks like they are dressing a boy as a girl.  Good luck with that.  I'm sure it will all turn out fine.  Until he kills them in their sleep with a crickett bat.



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28 JAN 2012 at 4:45pm

destraex

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http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=130662&st=260

 

Some replies from the other forum. The off topic over there is very "active" shall we say. Generally the more reasonable minds get drowned by the noise of shit throwing chimps.

 

"oh good, you're asking me if I have kids. Did you read the part where we discussed the relevance of that already?"

 

"Are you suggesting that if a kid wears a dress instead of pants then this is the same as the kid breaking furniture because this seems like what you are saying."

 

"I think you'll find that gender is a social construct, you may want to get in touch with your fenemin side."

 

"I say from now on anyone who posts saying Gender and biological sex are the same thing we just ignore."


"iterally everything you do with a child is an experiment fyi, you can keep repeating that but it don't help your argument none

 

"You need to start hanging out with more open minded people. You'd be surprised at just how many there are out there."


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Last edited by destraex : 28 JAN 2012 4:46pm
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28 JAN 2012 at 5:12pm

cicerno

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The guy who killed Ghandi was dressed as a girl growing up. It's child abuse. Raising a child is very simple. Just follow this rule. Don't fuck with your child. Just don't. No matter how hopped up you might be on religion, gender studies, wacko philosophies, whatever, keep it to yourself and leave your kid the fuck alone. A child is not an experiment subject. If you aren't allowed to impose this on an adult, why would it be ok to impose it on a child?


Here's the plan. We get the warhead and we hold the world ransom for... ONE MILLION DOLLARS! 

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28 JAN 2012 at 5:16pm

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Originally Posted By cicerno (28 JAN 2012 5:12pm)

The guy who killed Ghandi was dressed as a girl growing up. It's child abuse. Raising a child is very simple. Just follow this rule. Don't fuck with your child. Just don't. No matter how hopped up you might be on religion, gender studies, wacko philosophies, whatever, keep it to yourself and leave your kid the fuck alone. A child is not an experiment subject. If you aren't allowed to impose this on an adult, why would it be ok to impose it on a child?

 

Cicerno, you and I disagree often, but I wouldn't change a single word of what you wrote.

 

 


"When in danger, or in doubt.....run in circles, scream and shout!!!", author Herman Wouk.


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28 JAN 2012 at 5:50pm

destraex

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Perfect Cicerno.


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28 JAN 2012 at 8:04pm

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Gender neutrality is a fiction.  Having raised two of each, I'm certain that little guy has been expressing his own gender preference from the beginning.  It's the parents who are confused.  



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28 JAN 2012 at 8:21pm

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When we were young parents, my wife "lost it" for a brief period and proclaimed that our three year old son would not be allowed toy guns. While debating my counterattack (without wanting to lose marital privileges....hey, I was 24!) I called her to the kitchen window to look outside where our son was watching other kids play. The other boys were running around playing soldier and "shooting" at each other with toy guns. Our son? He watched dejectedly for a few moments, then picked up a stick and started shouting "bang!" "bang" as he jumped in to play with the other boys.

 

My wife's face fell and we took him to a toy store that same day...and bought toy guns. It was never an issue again.


"When in danger, or in doubt.....run in circles, scream and shout!!!", author Herman Wouk.


Last edited by Steelgrave : 28 JAN 2012 8:23pm
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29 JAN 2012 at 1:06pm

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there is a song for every thread i guess. here the proper one for all suffering boys:


I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect. Oscar Wilde

 

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Last edited by Keunert : 29 JAN 2012 1:07pm
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29 JAN 2012 at 1:53pm

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I can understand trying to get past the "only boys can be firefighters or police officers or soldiers" or "only girls can be nurses or secretaries" stereotypes.  

 

But this is way over the top....... I really think what these parents are doing is just as bad as parents who force their children in any type of predetermined direction. You need to let kids be kids. Trust me...it'll work out.



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29 JAN 2012 at 3:02pm

cicerno

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My parents did the same thing, except it was in the middle of the Vietnam War so I can understand they didn't want their boys growing up to die in a jungle somewhere. Anyhow, we all played war with sticks, pretending they were guns, mortors, artillery, machine gun emplacements, bows, lasers, swords, etc. I actually preferred them to the toy guns we couldn't have. A toy gun is kind of limiting. A stick can be anything. 

 

 

 

Originally Posted By Steelgrave (28 JAN 2012 8:21pm)

When we were young parents, my wife "lost it" for a brief period and proclaimed that our three year old son would not be allowed toy guns. While debating my counterattack (without wanting to lose marital privileges....hey, I was 24!) I called her to the kitchen window to look outside where our son was watching other kids play. The other boys were running around playing soldier and "shooting" at each other with toy guns. Our son? He watched dejectedly for a few moments, then picked up a stick and started shouting "bang!" "bang" as he jumped in to play with the other boys.

 

My wife's face fell and we took him to a toy store that same day...and bought toy guns. It was never an issue again.

 

 


Here's the plan. We get the warhead and we hold the world ransom for... ONE MILLION DOLLARS! 

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29 JAN 2012 at 3:47pm

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3 points that divorce the whole thing from reality

 

  1. Its in the Daily Mail
  2. The parents work in IT
  3. Its in the Daily Mail

Nothing to see here officer, just move along please......



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29 JAN 2012 at 5:54pm

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Ursula LeGuin, "Wizard of Earthsea", "Lathe of Heaven", wrote avery disturbing, deep novel back in the 70s,  "The Left Hand of Darkness".  She wrote of a world in which everyone changed sex at different times of their lives.

In a lesser writer's hands, this idea would have been a poor joke, but LeGuin somehow managed to pull it off.

This meant that there was total gender equality, since everyone was male at some point and then female at others.

However, people were still weak and vulnerable due to the changing, not due to the fact of their gender.

The basic dynamic of personality remained, some were self-contained, confident individuals, others were more dependent and less unsure of their position in life.

Somehow, LeGuin removed gender and showed that the individuals' personality was most important.

These people pushing Gender neutrality could probably not get past the initial premise of the work, but it was a well done, allegory on the problem.


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31 JAN 2012 at 9:02am

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Great song. RIP MrCash. 

 

Originally Posted By Keunert (29 JAN 2012 1:06pm)

there is a song for every thread i guess. here the proper one for all suffering boys:

 

 



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