Wargamer Home - Forum Home
Welcome Guest, please Login or Register!
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register or login before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Topic: Pilot involved in deliberate shoot down of a friendly a/c in 1987, up for flag rank! WTF

    Page 1

All Forums : [GENERAL] : General Discussion > Pilot involved in deliberate shoot down of a friendly a/c in 1987, up for flag rank! WTF
27 FEB 2012 at 2:39pm

steve58

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 119
Joined: 10 JAN 2011
Location: US, Virginia

Status : Offline

This is just so wrong...

  Why on earth wasn't this guy sacked.

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/16/admiral-nominee-rose-through-ranks-despite-illogic/

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/23/navy-aviators-career-soars-pilot-he-downed-suffers/?page=1


 

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -- Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by steve58 : 27 FEB 2012 2:41pm
Profile Search


27 FEB 2012 at 3:15pm

Steveski

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 365
Joined: 16 MAR 2008

Status : Offline

Originally Posted By steve58 (27 FEB 2012 2:39pm)

This is just so wrong...

  Why on earth wasn't this guy sacked.

 

 

In one word - "daddy".  Simply ridiculous.


We have nothing to fear but beer itself.


Profile Search
28 FEB 2012 at 3:07pm

ActionJack

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 7920
Joined: 19 SEP 2005

Status : Offline

Originally Posted By steve58 (27 FEB 2012 2:39pm)

This is just so wrong...

  Why on earth wasn't this guy sacked.

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/16/admiral-nominee-rose-through-ranks-despite-illogic/

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/23/navy-aviators-career-soars-pilot-he-downed-suffers/?page=1

 

Reading the links, it sounds like he was sacked; he never flew again.  His career went off track and he shifted to another and started to rise again.  Perhaps cream does always rise to the top.  In any event, life goes on.


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

The Old Guard


Profile Search
28 FEB 2012 at 4:08pm

Jarhead0331

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 8733
Joined: 24 MAY 2006
Location: 0, Texas

Status : Offline

Originally Posted By ActionJack (28 FEB 2012 3:07pm)

 

Reading the links, it sounds like he was sacked; he never flew again.  His career went off track and he shifted to another and started to rise again.  Perhaps cream does always rise to the top.  In any event, life goes on.

 

Are you serious? How on earth do you come to that conclusion from reading those two articles?  The man knowingly, deliberately and willfully launches a missile at an allied plane on a friggin exercise and all he gets is his flight status revoked?  He is now being considered for Admiral, and you think he was "sacked?"

 

What bizzaro weed are you smoking brother?  This daddy's golden boy should have been jailed for life.


"And They shall know no fear, for they are fear incarnate"

 

 The Old Guard


Profile Search
28 FEB 2012 at 4:49pm

ActionJack

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 7920
Joined: 19 SEP 2005

Status : Offline

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (28 FEB 2012 4:08pm)

Originally Posted By ActionJack (28 FEB 2012 3:07pm)

 

Reading the links, it sounds like he was sacked; he never flew again.  His career went off track and he shifted to another and started to rise again.  Perhaps cream does always rise to the top.  In any event, life goes on.

 

Are you serious? How on earth do you come to that conclusion from reading those two articles?  The man knowingly, deliberately and willfully launches a missile at an allied plane on a friggin exercise and all he gets is his flight status revoked?  He is now being considered for Admiral, and you think he was "sacked?"

 

What bizzaro weed are you smoking brother?  This daddy's golden boy should have been jailed for life.


Deliberate: slow, careful, and methodical. 

 

... “He failed to utilize the decision-making process taught in replacement training and reacted in a purely mechanical manner. The performance of Lieutenant Timothy W. Dorsey on September 22, 1987, raises substantial doubt as to his capacity for good, sound judgment.” 

 

When you say knowing and deliberately are you concluding he was trying to actually shoot down that aircraft? The inquiry didn't come to that conclusion but instead that he lacked the judgment skills required for flying. He obviously distinguished himself over the following 25 years so if there should have been an end to his career it should have occurred long before THIS promotion. That didn't happen but I guess unless his life and subsequent career isn't at least a tragedy equal to that of his hapless victim he shot down, some won't be content with this outcome. His victim has an emotional investment so his feeling is understandable but what excuse do others have to allow emotions to trump rational judgment?  In my view, there should be at least a chance of redemption in life; mistakes happen but people don't have to be dragged down eternally because of those mistakes.

 

Now if you believe he was trying to commit murder; that he was trying to actually shoot down that aircraft, then that's another matter. I won't argue that point because I don't think it was such an attempt and apparently the board of inquiry didn't either.  It sounds much more like that incident where the Oakland police officer drew his gun and shot his suspect while his partners subdued his victim.  I saw that video and I never thought he intentionally killed that guy.  Ditto with this story but of course, I didn't see this event.

 

 

 


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

The Old Guard


Last edited by ActionJack : 28 FEB 2012 4:53pm
Profile Search
28 FEB 2012 at 7:09pm

destraex

Global Moderator
Global Moderator



Posts : 6995
Joined: 8 MAY 2001
Location: AT, 3D

Status : Offline

Action I guess the other question is. Would other pilots have been discharged for a similar offense? Did he get special treatment all those years ago. In any case its  a moot point after all of this time.


Sail your ship as part of a fleet. Devs previously worked on: Darthmod, World of Warplanes, World of Tanks, RaceRoom, IL2-Sturmovik, Metro, STALKER and many other great games

The Old Guard


Profile Search
28 FEB 2012 at 8:38pm

ActionJack

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 7920
Joined: 19 SEP 2005

Status : Offline

Originally Posted By destraex (28 FEB 2012 7:09pm)

Action I guess the other question is. Would other pilots have been discharged for a similar offense? Did he get special treatment all those years ago. In any case its  a moot point after all of this time.

I wouldn't say it's moot and a protest of the confirmation could certainly travel this ground.  Yeah, I think his connections saved him!  Too bad that Oakland cop didn't have such connections.  Such is life.

 


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

The Old Guard


Profile Search
28 FEB 2012 at 8:50pm

ActionJack

Colonel
Colonel



Posts : 7920
Joined: 19 SEP 2005

Status : Offline

My thinking is that an F-14 driver is a rare breed so unless we're looking at some kind of affirmative action program (his father), then he probably had the chops for the kind of flying that requires split second decison making that fighter pilots need.  Given the facts of the event, in the very beginning he displayed a rather careless, or I should say action without thought, by just hanging around the refuelling.  Basically he's cheating which suggests a lazy or lackadasical attitude.  That speaks to attention to detail more than ability.  That lack of constant active thinking is what got him into trouble.  I've been burned too for the same because I was bored.  I guess I see it more as a negligent discharge of his weapon and although I've never had one, I've witness more than a few and from trained weapons instructors no less.

 

They say a strong emotional event is needed to bring a real change in a person.  It's possible that event provided one and he subsequently put his mind to work in equal measure with his talent and ability.  He got a law degree; and I think that says something about developing attention to detail.  Also, intel work requires the same.  I'm just suggesting he overcame his shortcomings and finally walked on the road he was always capable of travelling.  But it is all just supposition.


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

The Old Guard


Profile Search
1 MAR 2012 at 8:51pm

GDS Starfury

General
General



Posts : 16945
Joined: 26 MAY 2001
Location: US, Starbase 10

Status : Offline

ll play devils advocite.  its 1987 and the cold wars very hot and youre training like you would fight as often as you can.

was it a fuck up... sure.  however when your in that enviornment shit happens.  its the nature of the beast.

Id also puy forth that at the time IFF wasnt always cross service.  Id also submit that if this fuker was driving a F-14, it

was his RIOs job to make sure that the IFF and weapons were safe and secure during this cluster fuck.  thats why its a

dual crewed aircraft.  IMHO


 

The Old Guard


Profile Search
9 MAR 2012 at 4:10pm

critter

Commander
Commander



Posts : 1170
Joined: 7 APR 2004
Location: US

Status : Offline

An aviator flys the planes. A flag officer steers the ships.

Very rarely do you switch , But if you're willing to start over it can be done.

 

Nimitz ran his destroyer aground and was given a pass. Till his dieing day lived by the motto " Every dog deserves 2 bites.


 You know what's sad?  My first thought was, "Gah!  She overcooked the bacon!" - Martok


Profile Search
9 MAR 2012 at 5:02pm

jpfordh

Centurion
Centurion



Posts : 6
Joined: 29 FEB 2008
Location: 0

Status : Offline

I was stationed at Oceana in another airwing at the time and am very familiar with the incident.  A few critical facts that have been buried with time: Dorsey had just finished tanking off of a KC-135 before this engagement.  The plane he followed on the tanker?  The same RF-4 he shot down a few minutes later.  The investigation later showed that his first Sidewinder failed BIT and did not fire.  It was as if God tapped him on the shoulder and asked "Hey Tim, are you sure you want to do this?"  He did a fine job following procedures and cycled to the Sidewinder on the other wing and fired it.  How this guy as a flag officer could ever give an order which required the least bit of judgement and expect it to be followed when he showed such an appalling lack of judgement is beyond me.

 

 

Originally Posted By ActionJack (28 FEB 2012 4:49pm)

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (28 FEB 2012 4:08pm)

Originally Posted By ActionJack (28 FEB 2012 3:07pm)

 

Reading the links, it sounds like he was sacked; he never flew again.  His career went off track and he shifted to another and started to rise again.  Perhaps cream does always rise to the top.  In any event, life goes on.

 

Are you serious? How on earth do you come to that conclusion from reading those two articles?  The man knowingly, deliberately and willfully launches a missile at an allied plane on a friggin exercise and all he gets is his flight status revoked?  He is now being considered for Admiral, and you think he was "sacked?"

 

What bizzaro weed are you smoking brother?  This daddy's golden boy should have been jailed for life.


Deliberate: slow, careful, and methodical. 

 

... “He failed to utilize the decision-making process taught in replacement training and reacted in a purely mechanical manner. The performance of Lieutenant Timothy W. Dorsey on September 22, 1987, raises substantial doubt as to his capacity for good, sound judgment.” 

 

When you say knowing and deliberately are you concluding he was trying to actually shoot down that aircraft? The inquiry didn't come to that conclusion but instead that he lacked the judgment skills required for flying. He obviously distinguished himself over the following 25 years so if there should have been an end to his career it should have occurred long before THIS promotion. That didn't happen but I guess unless his life and subsequent career isn't at least a tragedy equal to that of his hapless victim he shot down, some won't be content with this outcome. His victim has an emotional investment so his feeling is understandable but what excuse do others have to allow emotions to trump rational judgment?  In my view, there should be at least a chance of redemption in life; mistakes happen but people don't have to be dragged down eternally because of those mistakes.

 

Now if you believe he was trying to commit murder; that he was trying to actually shoot down that aircraft, then that's another matter. I won't argue that point because I don't think it was such an attempt and apparently the board of inquiry didn't either.  It sounds much more like that incident where the Oakland police officer drew his gun and shot his suspect while his partners subdued his victim.  I saw that video and I never thought he intentionally killed that guy.  Ditto with this story but of course, I didn't see this event.

 

 

 

 

 



Profile Search
All Forums : [GENERAL] : General Discussion > Pilot involved in deliberate shoot down of a friendly a/c in 1987, up for flag rank! WTF

    Page 1

Jump to:
1 Members Subscribed To This Topic