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Topic: Conservative leaders demand apology from Huffington over anti-Catholic column

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All Forums : [GENERAL] : General Discussion : Current Events > Conservative leaders demand apology from Huffington over anti-Catholic column
29 FEB 2012 at 4:52pm

ActionJack

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Conservative leaders demand apology from Huffington over anti-Catholic column

 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/28/conservative-leaders-demand-apology-from-huffington-over-anti-catholic-column/

 

 

 


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29 FEB 2012 at 5:45pm

Seytan

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Cannot say I personally have anything nice to say about Αριάννα Στασινοπούλου.



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29 FEB 2012 at 6:15pm

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By Seytan (29 FEB 2012 5:45pm)

Cannot say I personally have anything nice to say about Αριάννα Στασινοπούλου.

She used to make a lot of sense way before she started her blogosphere.  I think she's playing a game to collect  applause and mana.

 


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29 FEB 2012 at 6:21pm

cicerno

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 One would have to be an idiot of Biblical proportions to believe that the 'article' was anything but a satire. Clearly the writers of the Fox dribble linked above knew it was a satire, yet wrote anyways, making another appeal to the absolutely worst, most disgusting aspect of the American Right today; the incessent, whining, cry-baby victimhood. 

 

If the satire on Huffington Post's satire page offends you, then in America, it is still permitted to not take the time and trouble to navigate to the Huffington Post satire page and read what you know is going to offend you. 

 

I look forward to the day when Republicans finally man-up and tell these loudmouths giving their party a bad name to zip up their vaginas and try to act like grown men.


Here's the plan. We get the warhead and we hold the world ransom for... ONE MILLION DOLLARS! 

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29 FEB 2012 at 6:36pm

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I admit I haven't read the blog...doubt I ever will.  But the outrage by Catholics in particular (and christians in general, I would hope) is very misplaced.  You see, we ARE a Christ-eating cult!  That is, we are if we are doing it correctly.  Not to mention that we are a Christ-blood drinking cult, as well.  I take heart that peeps would characterize me this way.

 

 


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29 FEB 2012 at 7:36pm

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By cicerno (29 FEB 2012 6:21pm)

 One would have to be an idiot of Biblical proportions to believe that the 'article' was anything but a satire. Clearly the writers of the Fox dribble linked above knew it was a satire, yet wrote anyways, making another appeal to the absolutely worst, most disgusting aspect of the American Right today; the incessent, whining, cry-baby victimhood. 

 

If the satire on Huffington Post's satire page offends you, then in America, it is still permitted to not take the time and trouble to navigate to the Huffington Post satire page and read what you know is going to offend you. 

 

I look forward to the day when Republicans finally man-up and tell these loudmouths giving their party a bad name to zip up their vaginas and try to act like grown men.

Really?!  Change the target and make it race-based insults and "satire" instead of religious.  What would be the response if it was targeted towards blacks; about Obama being black?  People just see what they want to see.  How sad!!!

 

 


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

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29 FEB 2012 at 8:22pm

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Well, ethnicity is not a choice. Religion is, sort of. I say "sort of" because indoctrination of the young plays a huge role in the propagation of religions over the generations. Someone who develops critical thinking skills can reason themselves out of any religion. Skin color, not so much.

 

Originally Posted By ActionJack (29 FEB 2012 7:36pm)

Originally Posted By cicerno (29 FEB 2012 6:21pm)

 One would have to be an idiot of Biblical proportions to believe that the 'article' was anything but a satire. Clearly the writers of the Fox dribble linked above knew it was a satire, yet wrote anyways, making another appeal to the absolutely worst, most disgusting aspect of the American Right today; the incessent, whining, cry-baby victimhood. 

 

If the satire on Huffington Post's satire page offends you, then in America, it is still permitted to not take the time and trouble to navigate to the Huffington Post satire page and read what you know is going to offend you. 

 

I look forward to the day when Republicans finally man-up and tell these loudmouths giving their party a bad name to zip up their vaginas and try to act like grown men.

Really?!  Change the target and make it race-based insults and "satire" instead of religious.  What would be the response if it was targeted towards blacks; about Obama being black?  People just see what they want to see.  How sad!!!

 

 

 

 


“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts

 

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29 FEB 2012 at 9:28pm

cicerno

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This is what I see.

 

I don't read Huffington Post. I don't read their satire section. I don't read or watch main stream media. 

 

Yet how many times do we hear some idiot complaining about 'main stream media'? Or the 'liberal media'? 

 

My first reaction is always "How do you know what the 'main stream media' is saying?"

 

If it bothers you, don't watch it. 

 

If what a writer from the Simpsons writes in the satire section of Huffington Post bothers you, don't read it.

 

Whenever someone, like the above linked authors, bitch about what someone is saying in a satire section, know this. They are effectively demanding conformity and obedience of thought. This is exactly what the communists demand. This is exactly what the theocrats demand. This is exactly what the Nazis and Fascists demand. 


Here's the plan. We get the warhead and we hold the world ransom for... ONE MILLION DOLLARS! 

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29 FEB 2012 at 10:13pm

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By Ubercat (29 FEB 2012 8:22pm)

Well, ethnicity is not a choice. Religion is, sort of. I say "sort of" because indoctrination of the young plays a huge role in the propagation of religions over the generations. Someone who develops critical thinking skills can reason themselves out of any religion. Skin color, not so much.

 

It's your contention that a person can more easily deny his faith than change his skin color and therefore such attacks are warranted.  Is that your contention?  That's a point of view of someone without faith so it's not a viable argument.  That's as bad the justifications used to further segregation and worse.  "well its ok to do that to them but not me because I'm not one of them". No wonder so many have run to the other board.

 

 


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1 MAR 2012 at 6:03am

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Targeting christians and cathlotics is the last acceptable form of bigotry. When called out they say spinelessly 'satire' though nothing funny is found here. The excuse as well as the fact that they'd never do this to muslims shows the cowardly nature of the writer and the fact catholics can go on to the next day without threatening to kill both the author and publisher leaves an example of  the correct way to behave to other religions as well as to the secular left-which is the last bastion of hate speech in America.


 

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1 MAR 2012 at 8:47am

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I have a problem with prejudice against people over things that they have no choice or control over (racism). I don't have a problem with satire of people that believe irrational things. I wonder how many people would get upset if the article were making fun of crystal clacking, tin foil hat wearers?

 

GR, I think that you have it backwards. The backlash against the article shows that it is not acceptable to a significant portion of the population. What if the article were mocking atheism? Other than a handful of negative replies, most faithheads would chuckle and call it well deserved. Prejudice against non believers is the last acceptable form of bigotry.

 

Just try applying for a job where people know that you're an atheist. Even non religious folks get scared of that word. "He drinks the blood and eats the flesh of Jesus. He worships a loving God who throws the great majority of his creations in hell to burn forever and ever. Must be a great guy!" VS. "He believes that people should rationally consider their beliefs rather than blindly swallowing dogma. Oh my God he eats babies!"

 

You are right though, about the hypocrisy. I wonder how long the Muslims could keep screaming if EVERYONE mocked their prophet, ALL the time? There would be a lot of violence, and people would suffer, but eventually the truly dangerous ones would have blown themselves up and those with with the capacity for reason would realize how silly it all is. It would be like drawing an infection from a wound, or pushing the buttons over and over until they don't work anymore. A forced growing up, if that makes sense.


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1 MAR 2012 at 9:45am

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People have no choice over their ethnicity.  How actively they practice it is their choice.

People have a choice to be faithers or not.  How actively they practice it is their choice.

I have been called a coward for being an uncomitted discordian agnostic because I admit

to not knowing what other people, both athiest and faithers "know".  I have a problem with

people who "know" things that by my definition cannot be known. That goes for any loud-mouth

jerk speaking on a subject on which he is poorly informed.  Mostly I just do not care.

Some people "know" Elvis is alive. My question is ... why do a group of people who

believe in an all powerful score keeper up in the sky feel a need to defend him?  Can he not

look after himself?  We were always told he will get us in the end.  Gratuitously insulting a

group of people seems a little immature although I admit to doing it sometimes.  The reasonable response

is something like "Your comments are untrue and you hurt my feelings."


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1 MAR 2012 at 10:12am

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By danlongman (1 MAR 2012 9:45am)

People have no choice over their ethnicity.  How actively they practice it is their choice.

People have a choice to be faithers or not.  How actively they practice it is their choice.

I have been called a coward for being an uncomitted discordian agnostic because I admit

to not knowing what other people, both athiest and faithers "know".  I have a problem with

people who "know" things that by my definition cannot be known. That goes for any loud-mouth

jerk speaking on a subject on which he is poorly informed.  Mostly I just do not care.

Some people "know" Elvis is alive. My question is ... why do a group of people who

believe in an all powerful score keeper up in the sky feel a need to defend him?  Can he not

look after himself?  We were always told he will get us in the end.  Gratuitously insulting a

group of people seems a little immature although I admit to doing it sometimes.  The reasonable response

is something like "Your comments are untrue and you hurt my feelings."

I wonder if some, over the centuries, who participated, supported or just enabled the many pogroms that occurred in Europe culminating in the greatest pogrom of all called the holocaust justified their action/inaction on just such a theme.  Man can rationalize practically anything!  The ultimate rationalization is "... I just don't care"

 


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1 MAR 2012 at 10:31am

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You have a big point there AJ.  What I meant was I do not care about believers, non-believers

and in-betweeners bashing each other publicly over matters that have been a matter of pilosophical

debate for ever and ever.  I think it is unseemly and makes fools out of most concerned.


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1 MAR 2012 at 12:23pm

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By danlongman (1 MAR 2012 10:31am)

You have a big point there AJ.  What I meant was I do not care about believers, non-believers

and in-betweeners bashing each other publicly over matters that have been a matter of pilosophical

debate for ever and ever.  I think it is unseemly and makes fools out of most concerned.

Ah; I missed that.  Sorry!  I think it must be difficult for, lack of a better phrase, non-believers to fathom what it means to believe in God, or even a higher power.  It is certainly difficult for me to fathom what would be the point of life without God, or what would be the point of morality.  Why should I care about my fellow man if existence is merely a brief happening in the universe?  Why should I put man and his existence above that of any other animal; or above the present condition of the earth?  Why do we look with fascination and awe, but not anguish at the great show of meteor impacts on Jupiter?  I think it's because we are unsure of whether there is life there and quite certain that man is not there.  Life is important because it is a gift and not just an occurrence in nature.  The creation of man is a special gift otherwise horrors life murder, mass murder and slavery wouldn't be horrors at all except to those upon who are inflicted.  There's no getting out of this life alive, so if there is no God what difference could anything or any event really matter?  I can't fathom how a non-believer would care about anything or anyone, so it seems only fair that an non-believer not understand either.

 


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

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1 MAR 2012 at 12:33pm

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Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 12:23pm)

Originally Posted By danlongman (1 MAR 2012 10:31am)

You have a big point there AJ.  What I meant was I do not care about believers, non-believers

and in-betweeners bashing each other publicly over matters that have been a matter of pilosophical

debate for ever and ever.  I think it is unseemly and makes fools out of most concerned.

Ah; I missed that.  Sorry!  I think it must be difficult for, lack of a better phrase, non-believers to fathom what is means to believe in God, or even a higher power.  It is certainly difficult for me to fathom what would be the point of life without God, or what would be the point of morality.  Why should I care about my fellow man if existence is merely a brief happening in the universe?  Why should I put man and his existence above that of any other animal; or above the present condition of the earth?  Why do we look with fascination and awe, but not anguish at the great show of meteor impacts on Jupiter?  I think it's because we are unsure of whether there is life there and quite certain that man is not there.  Life is important because it is a gift and not just an occurrence in nature.  The creation of man is a special gift otherwise horrors life murder, mass murder and slavery wouldn't be horrors at all except to those upon who it is inflicted by it.  There's no getting out of this life alive, so if there is no God what difference could anything or any event really matter?  I can't fathom how a non-believer would care about anything or anyone, so it seems only fair that an non-believer not understand either.

 

 

We've gone over and over the point of life, with or without a god, multiple times in past threads. That you refuse to concede that non believers have a valid worldview, or even concede that they have ANY worldview, does not invalidate them. I guess if you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend not to hear, then you're spared from actually having to support your claims.


“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts

 

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1 MAR 2012 at 1:39pm

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By Ubercat (1 MAR 2012 12:33pm)

Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 12:23pm)

Originally Posted By danlongman (1 MAR 2012 10:31am)

You have a big point there AJ.  What I meant was I do not care about believers, non-believers

and in-betweeners bashing each other publicly over matters that have been a matter of pilosophical

debate for ever and ever.  I think it is unseemly and makes fools out of most concerned.

Ah; I missed that.  Sorry!  I think it must be difficult for, lack of a better phrase, non-believers to fathom what is means to believe in God, or even a higher power.  It is certainly difficult for me to fathom what would be the point of life without God, or what would be the point of morality.  Why should I care about my fellow man if existence is merely a brief happening in the universe?  Why should I put man and his existence above that of any other animal; or above the present condition of the earth?  Why do we look with fascination and awe, but not anguish at the great show of meteor impacts on Jupiter?  I think it's because we are unsure of whether there is life there and quite certain that man is not there.  Life is important because it is a gift and not just an occurrence in nature.  The creation of man is a special gift otherwise horrors life murder, mass murder and slavery wouldn't be horrors at all except to those upon who it is inflicted by it.  There's no getting out of this life alive, so if there is no God what difference could anything or any event really matter?  I can't fathom how a non-believer would care about anything or anyone, so it seems only fair that an non-believer not understand either.

 

 

We've gone over and over the point of life, with or without a god, multiple times in past threads. That you refuse to concede that non believers have a valid worldview, or even concede that they have ANY worldview, does not invalidate them. I guess if you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend not to hear, then you're spared from actually having to support your claims.


Nonsense!  I can only concede that possibly their not understanding might be equally matched.  Beyond that, my offering or even an ability to offer support for my belief does not invalidate it.  I can't explain a great many things; I can't explain the universe, black holes, validity of time travel or how anyone can be an atheist.  My lack of an explanation of these things does not erase their existence now does it?

 


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1 MAR 2012 at 2:07pm

DBeves

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Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 12:23pm)

Originally Posted By danlongman (1 MAR 2012 10:31am)

You have a big point there AJ.  What I meant was I do not care about believers, non-believers

and in-betweeners bashing each other publicly over matters that have been a matter of pilosophical

debate for ever and ever.  I think it is unseemly and makes fools out of most concerned.

Ah; I missed that.  Sorry!  I think it must be difficult for, lack of a better phrase, non-believers to fathom what it means to believe in God, or even a higher power.  It is certainly difficult for me to fathom what would be the point of life without God, or what would be the point of morality.  Why should I care about my fellow man if existence is merely a brief happening in the universe?  Why should I put man and his existence above that of any other animal; or above the present condition of the earth?  Why do we look with fascination and awe, but not anguish at the great show of meteor impacts on Jupiter?  I think it's because we are unsure of whether there is life there and quite certain that man is not there.  Life is important because it is a gift and not just an occurrence in nature.  The creation of man is a special gift otherwise horrors life murder, mass murder and slavery wouldn't be horrors at all except to those upon who are inflicted.  There's no getting out of this life alive, so if there is no God what difference could anything or any event really matter?  I can't fathom how a non-believer would care about anything or anyone, so it seems only fair that an non-believer not understand either.

 

 

Well yes - but its equally difficult for non believers to fathom how believers can believe in a god that will stand by and watch children die before his eyes for lack of a drop of water. How he can stand by and watch evil do its unspeakable things - and not stand in its way as some men (believers and non alike) have the courage to do. An indifferent god is worse than no god.

 

I care about my fellow man because it is the right and human thing to do - not because I fear or believe in some higher power. Does it say more for the non believer that he does so without a belief - or as you say you do only because he sees some higher power giving him reason to do so.

 

the creation of man is a gift whether it happened by the hands of a diety or by science - I see no lesser awe in man created by chance than by a god, more perhaps.

 

If god does exist - and I have no firm evidence either way - and after all there must be a "reason" for all this as I believe the "it all sprang from nothing" argument more preposterous than a god argument - then he is as equally indifferent to mans existence as he is to his sufferings. This is what I conclude by my experience of the world and all its history - not blind faith as that never led to anywhere but hell.

 

The argument that there is no reason to be good without a basis in religion - and therefore without it they would all descend into an orgy of rape and murder tells more about believers than anything else.  



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1 MAR 2012 at 2:25pm

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What DBeeves said....And

Always make sure to dehumanize your opponent in a discussion.

Insinuate that his way of thought or lack thereof is so repugnant or alien

that a right thinking being couldn't comprehend it.  I indicated the debate

in question was a mystery to me...but did not advocate any crimes against

humanity as a result of my inability to draw a conclusion.

Greater minds than mine and any I have seen evidenced here have pondered this

complexity coming to many diverse conclusions.


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1 MAR 2012 at 2:39pm

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Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 2:07pm)

 

Well yes - but its equally difficult for non believers to fathom how believers can believe in a god that will stand by and watch children die before his eyes for lack of a drop of water. How he can stand by and watch evil do its unspeakable things - and not stand in its way as some men (believers and non alike) have the courage to do. An indifferent god is worse than no god.

 

I care about my fellow man because it is the right and human thing to do - not because I fear or believe in some higher power. Does it say more for the non believer that he does so without a belief - or as you say you do only because he sees some higher power giving him reason to do so.

 

the creation of man is a gift whether it happened by the hands of a diety or by science - I see no lesser awe in man created by chance than by a god, more perhaps.

 

If god does exist - and I have no firm evidence either way - and after all there must be a "reason" for all this as I believe the "it all sprang from nothing" argument more preposterous than a god argument - then he is as equally indifferent to mans existence as he is to his sufferings. This is what I conclude by my experience of the world and all its history - not blind faith as that never led to anywhere but hell.

 

The argument that there is no reason to be good without a basis in religion - and therefore without it they would all descend into an orgy of rape and murder tells more about believers than anything else.  

Is anyone supposed to live forever?  If the afterlife is better how is God fulfilling his promise to us a free will somehow wrong?  Are we to have that free will taken away the very moment we decide to act outside the morality based upon a belief in God?  You see an indifference based on your standards but who are you to apply a standard to God?  It works in the reverse; he gives us a standard and it is for us, freely, to meet that standard.

 

Now granted, it is easier without God because then you can make up any standard and change it anytime.  We are a species that likes to acquire things; it is our nature.  The earliest cavemen adorned themselves, traded and fashioned things.  What has to be learned is a respect for others' possessions.  That's a standard that comes to us from God.  It is so much easier without God to justify the theft of others' possessions, or successes, which in the long run ruins incentive and dooms us all.  There's a reason that Communist nations work hard to destroy the belief in God and an equal reason why such nations are so poor in every way imaginable.  And that's just one example.  It was a belief in God too that ended the long practice of slavery.

 

There's no reason for a morality without God and thus there is no morality without God.  Now we're way outside the theme of this thread which is the double standard applied by leftist and their attack on religion which they see as an obstacle to the control of man.  Yeah, that's right!  True haters of freedom.

 

"... A government can't control the economy without controlling people. And they know when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose."  Ronald Reagan


"When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one’s feet. This morality is by no means self-evident: this point has to be exhibited again and again, despite the English flatheads. Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole: nothing necessary remains in one’s hands. Christianity presupposes that man does not know, cannot know, what is good for him, what evil: he believes in God, who alone knows it. Christian morality is a command; its origin is transcendent; it is beyond all criticism, all right to criticism; it has truth only if God has truth—it stands or falls with faith in God." arch-atheist Friedrich Nietzsche

 

 

 


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1 MAR 2012 at 3:12pm

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Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 2:39pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 2:07pm)

 

Well yes - but its equally difficult for non believers to fathom how believers can believe in a god that will stand by and watch children die before his eyes for lack of a drop of water. How he can stand by and watch evil do its unspeakable things - and not stand in its way as some men (believers and non alike) have the courage to do. An indifferent god is worse than no god.

 

I care about my fellow man because it is the right and human thing to do - not because I fear or believe in some higher power. Does it say more for the non believer that he does so without a belief - or as you say you do only because he sees some higher power giving him reason to do so.

 

the creation of man is a gift whether it happened by the hands of a diety or by science - I see no lesser awe in man created by chance than by a god, more perhaps.

 

If god does exist - and I have no firm evidence either way - and after all there must be a "reason" for all this as I believe the "it all sprang from nothing" argument more preposterous than a god argument - then he is as equally indifferent to mans existence as he is to his sufferings. This is what I conclude by my experience of the world and all its history - not blind faith as that never led to anywhere but hell.

 

The argument that there is no reason to be good without a basis in religion - and therefore without it they would all descend into an orgy of rape and murder tells more about believers than anything else.  

Is anyone supposed to live forever?  If the afterlife is better how is God fulfilling his promise to us a free will somehow wrong?  Are we to have that free will taken away the very moment we decide to act outside the morality based upon a belief in God?  You see an indifference based on your standards but who are you to apply a standard to God?  It works in the reverse; he gives us a standard and it is for us, freely, to meet that standard.

 

Now granted, it is easier without God because then you can make up any standard and change it anytime.  We are a species that likes to acquire things; it is our nature.  The earliest cavemen adorned themselves, traded and fashioned things.  What has to be learned is a respect for others' possessions.  That's a standard that comes to us from God.  It is so much easier without God to justify the theft of others' possessions, or successes, which in the long run ruins incentive and dooms us all.  There's a reason that Communist nations work hard to destroy the belief in God and an equal reason why such nations are so poor in every way imaginable.  And that's just one example.  It was a belief in God too that ended the long practice of slavery.

 

There's no reason for a morality without God and thus there is no morality without God.  Now we're way outside the theme of this thread which is the double standard applied by leftist and their attack on religion which they see as an obstacle to the control of man.  Yeah, that's right!  True haters of freedom.

 

"... A government can't control the economy without controlling people. And they know when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose."  Ronald Reagan


"When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one’s feet. This morality is by no means self-evident: this point has to be exhibited again and again, despite the English flatheads. Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole: nothing necessary remains in one’s hands. Christianity presupposes that man does not know, cannot know, what is good for him, what evil: he believes in God, who alone knows it. Christian morality is a command; its origin is transcendent; it is beyond all criticism, all right to criticism; it has truth only if God has truth—it stands or falls with faith in God." arch-atheist Friedrich Nietzsche

 

 

 

 

Yes - but your belief is not a belief in a God - it is a belief in a religion - one which constructs its own value system around a belief in what they call god.

 

If I were religious I could be taught any number of things from hating homosexuals to not using condoms - to doing good works for charity to women are subserviant beings. These may or may not coincide with the construct of your particular religion but they are a value system created by men none the less and ones who beleive as vehemently as any other believer in a god. Therefore the argument about a god - because we are human beings necessarily and immediately has to become an argument about religion - which is simply an argument about my team is better than your team. And as a means of constructing a value system to live by is worth no more than a non believers construction without the dictatcs of a religion.

 

I think I am going to have a hard time believing that religion stopped slavery - religion was around when it started too. Plenty of so called religious people and nations have had no qualms at all about enslaving and subjugating millions in the world. They have indeed used it as a reason to. Religion doesnt bring good things into the world people do.

 

Give me a god by all means - but not one built by men to satisfy their own world view.



Last edited by DBeves : 1 MAR 2012 3:24pm
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1 MAR 2012 at 3:29pm

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 3:12pm)

 

 

Yes - but your belief is not a belief in a God - it is a belief in a religion - one which constructs its own value system around a belief in what they call god.

 

If I were religious I could be taught any number of things from hating homosexuals to not using condoms - to doing good works for charity to women are subserviant beings. These may or may not coincide with the construct of your particular religion but they are a value system created by men none the less and ones who beleive as vehemently as any other believer in a god. Therefore the argument about a god - because we are human beings necessarily and immediately has to become an argument about religion - which is simply an argument about my team is better than your team. And as a means of constructing a value system to live by is worth no more than a non believers construction without the dictatcs of a religion.

 

Give me a god by all means - but not one built by men to satisfy their own world view.

First you can't substantiate your definition of my beliefs so it's ridiculous to try.  Secondly, your entire premise rests on your belief that there is no God which entirely invalidates your thesis.  Now granted you are perhaps just speaking out of ignorance in describing your view of religion which is perhaps understandable given it's an atheistic point of view.  Of course if one decides it's all untrue why bother to study and understand it.

 

This 'team aspect' of which you speak is merely a manifestation of mankind.  We are what we are and often act in what we know and xenophobia is a part of that construct; so too is a desire to dominate others and thus why we also war.  That speaks nothing about God or even religion both which call for us to rise above our nature.  I refer again to Nietzsche.

 


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

The Old Guard


Last edited by ActionJack : 1 MAR 2012 3:32pm
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1 MAR 2012 at 3:46pm

DBeves

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Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 3:29pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 3:12pm)

 

 

Yes - but your belief is not a belief in a God - it is a belief in a religion - one which constructs its own value system around a belief in what they call god.

 

If I were religious I could be taught any number of things from hating homosexuals to not using condoms - to doing good works for charity to women are subserviant beings. These may or may not coincide with the construct of your particular religion but they are a value system created by men none the less and ones who beleive as vehemently as any other believer in a god. Therefore the argument about a god - because we are human beings necessarily and immediately has to become an argument about religion - which is simply an argument about my team is better than your team. And as a means of constructing a value system to live by is worth no more than a non believers construction without the dictatcs of a religion.

 

Give me a god by all means - but not one built by men to satisfy their own world view.

First you can't substantiate your definition of my beliefs so it's ridiculous to try.  Secondly, your entire premise rests on your belief that there is no God which entirely invalidates your thesis.  Now granted you are perhaps just speaking out of ignorance in describing your view of religion which is perhaps understandable given it's an atheistic point of view.  Of course if one decides it's all untrue why bother to study and understand it.

 

This 'team aspect' of which you speak is merely a manifestation of mankind.  We are what we are and often act in what we know and xenophobia is a part of that construct; so too is a desire to dominate others and thus why we also war.  That speaks nothing about God or even religion both which call for us to rise above our nature.  I refer again to Nietzsche.

 

 

I am not trying to define your beliefs - I made no presumption about yours - only others.

My premise does not lie upon ignorance at all but quite the contrary - in fact perhaps a more enlightened position than yours. As I know I live a good life, help others, am kind to my kids and wife, dont murder or rape - and I do all this without a religion or belief in god but accept others need one to find a meaning to the world - so I can understand your world view but you cannot mine. Humans may speak nothing to god - but religion is man made and therefore is indivisible from them.


 



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1 MAR 2012 at 4:15pm

ActionJack

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Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 3:46pm)

Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 3:29pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 3:12pm)

 

 

Yes - but your belief is not a belief in a God - it is a belief in a religion - one which constructs its own value system around a belief in what they call god.

 

...

 

I am not trying to define your beliefs - I made no presumption about yours - only others.

My premise does not lie upon ignorance at all but quite the contrary - in fact perhaps a more enlightened position than yours. As I know I live a good life, help others, am kind to my kids and wife, dont murder or rape - and I do all this without a religion or belief in god but accept others need one to find a meaning to the world - so I can understand your world view but you cannot mine. Humans may speak nothing to god - but religion is man made and therefore is indivisible from them.


 

I guess I misread it.  In any event you promote some aspects of your life and declare that it proves religion or God unnecessary for there to be what  --- goodness in the world?  Perhaps, but how would that have affected the end of slavery?  What about recent campaigns to promote envy at others' good fortune or success and the instigated results of such campaigns?  Furthermore, your own self restraint says nothing about the enabling of the bad behavior of others.  No man is an island and your individual construct benefits who but you and your own?  God provides guideposts on not only how to live individually, but how to live together; how to thrive together.

 


"Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."  Frederic Bastiat 1801-1850

 

The Old Guard


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1 MAR 2012 at 4:58pm

DBeves

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Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 4:15pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 3:46pm)

Originally Posted By ActionJack (1 MAR 2012 3:29pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (1 MAR 2012 3:12pm)

 

 

Yes - but your belief is not a belief in a God - it is a belief in a religion - one which constructs its own value system around a belief in what they call god.

 

...

 

I am not trying to define your beliefs - I made no presumption about yours - only others.

My premise does not lie upon ignorance at all but quite the contrary - in fact perhaps a more enlightened position than yours. As I know I live a good life, help others, am kind to my kids and wife, dont murder or rape - and I do all this without a religion or belief in god but accept others need one to find a meaning to the world - so I can understand your world view but you cannot mine. Humans may speak nothing to god - but religion is man made and therefore is indivisible from them.


 

I guess I misread it.  In any event you promote some aspects of your life and declare that it proves religion or God unnecessary for there to be what  --- goodness in the world?  Perhaps, but how would that have affected the end of slavery?  What about recent campaigns to promote envy at others' good fortune or success and the instigated results of such campaigns?  Furthermore, your own self restraint says nothing about the enabling of the bad behavior of others.  No man is an island and your individual construct benefits who but you and your own?  God provides guideposts on not only how to live individually, but how to live together; how to thrive together.

 

 

Well - I think slavery would have ended. In much the same way laws are passed outlawing racial hatred or equality for women or equal rights for disabled people etc etc. Maybe I have more faith in human nature than you - that in the end - while the journey is long and hard and a long long way from being over - human society generally changes for the better - and that is not driven by religion. I think you will find slavery ended due to public opinion - that public opinion may have been more cognisant of religion in those days - but I doubt in the more secular world of today public opinion would find slavery any less abhorrent than it was then.

 

Yes no man is an island but that would profess that I am the only non believer who would live my life that way. that there isnt a shared belief indeed in human society that living a good life benefits the majority and actually makes a society possible in the first place. Is that not what societal laws are actually all about. I see evidence daily of people doing good things simply because that is who they are - not because of religion. 

 

I dont begrudge people their religion - It has been a power for good in many individual circumstances - people defied hitler because their religion said they should - my contention is that those with the courage to do so in the first place would have done so anyway.

 

God may provide those guide posts - but they are there anyway - and good people follow them whether guided by him or not - if for no other reason than the world - in the places where it does - wouldnt work without them.

 

what I doubt about your rationale - is that an evil man has ever been stopped from doing evil by his religion.



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