I've just done a test on the 3Dground100.bmp file, to see if I could tidy it up somewhat.

I think one of the problems with the graphics is that the background is grainy and a lot of the tiny unit details just seem to "mash into" it, and make my old man's eyes bleed.

I loaded the file into Photoshop and have applied a simple Blur filter to it (well just the terrain hexes).

Here's the original:

And here's the Blurred copy:

For eye comfort, I think it makes a huge difference - the unit's stand out a lot more from the background. 

Opinions?

Actually, I think Photobucket is doing some resizing on those images, so the difference doesn't look as prominent (because I think they're both smoothed out by the resizing).

Try these, smaller versions of the originals. With a bit of luck Photobucket won't have messed with them.

Original

Blurred

If it were me, I would dial back the blurring a bit.  Blur the roads (and ...?) too.  But overall, your notion is good.

Any way you slice, HPS Simulations could use a new head of art direction.

Their graphic images are soooooo old I recall their team DJ'ing at The Boston Tea Party!!!

Seriously, a Ferrari engine with a Yugo body.

Ahhh...better now...thank you all for indulging me, yet again....

Like mostly all the other game companies a large selection of mods are available to suit personnal tastes and dislikes.

Contact me direct and I will send you some to mull over, think I have one which is very high res produced in 2006 which I also use in my ACW games after some tweaking, which I hasten to add were all done by many other fellows.

As an afterthought are the 3D files 256 color, you could try saving them as 24bit !!!.

East, I appreciate your offer, I really do!

My point was continuing to need to mod their graphics at all considering how long they have been in "the biz".

Just sayin'....

Anyone who wants the blurred terrain file can get it here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j2m3urcaob3d5qc/A82y2jUM2z/3DGround100x.bmp

Just put it in the Map folder, rename the original, and then knock the 'x' off the file name. The blurring and saving process has made the file about 4Mb as opposed to the original 1.5Mb, dunno whether this will impact on performance, or whether the file could be jiggied back down to a smaller footprint. 

Spelk,

   I have to agree with you it does make an subtle but definate improvement at least for my middle aged eyes.  Thanks.  I think I will experiment using your blurring idea myself...if I cannot find a personal sweet spot I will download your modded file.  Nice work.

The other approach is to use Ezjax 3D terrain, or at least grass, either in unmodified form (from one of his posted mods) or in adapted form (from my Leipzig mod which only changes the color scheme that Ezjax used for the different elevations).

To see what I'm talking about, go here:

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=582191

and scroll down a bit until you see one of the examples with 3D figures.  That's Ezjax grass you're looking at.

(I'm still not completely satisfied with the way it distinguishes between elevations, but that will change either when I produce the next version of my Leipzig mod, or when I produce an 1814 mod -- which is now in the cards though not yet in the works).

You can get my Leipzip mod at Gamesquad forums.  It's in eight or nine pieces and I'm not at my computer so I don't remember which one has the 3D grass.

The difference between Ezjax grass and my version of Ezjax grass is that he doesn't make higher or lower elevations progressively darker or lighter -- he prefers to make a strong contrast between the different elevations and leaves it at that.  I've tried (not always successfully) to make the higher elevations lighter and the lower ones darker, so that when you stand back from the map you can tell that terrain is rising or falling.  Given the way the program selects rows from the bitmap to show higher or lower terrain, this is much easier to describe than to put into practise.

Leipzig and 1814 should be using pretty much the same bitmaps for pretty similar things (sometimes exactly the same bitmaps), so most of my Leipzig mod can already be ported over to 1814.  The two games share the same units image file, and I may even have put flags behind the 1814 units.  My mod anticipated some corrections to missing sabers and lances from the original Leipzig release, but I wasn't focusing on 1814 and I think there have been some minor changes to a few of the figures.

But untill I get around to it, there's no reason why you can't roll your own sneak preview of what the finished product will sort of look like.  I also applaud the experiments with the blurring filter -- I suspect I prefer Ezjax grass, but would be interested in hearinf from someone who has used both.

Philipe, I did download your mod for Liepzig from Gamesquad when you mentioned it last time. I installed it but couldn't get over the graphics hurdle. 

I think the blurring of the terrain, just about puts the game at a playable level for me, but I'm constantly hankering after larger sprites, and I know I'll never get them. 

In order to feel the thrill of Napoleonics I seem to have to play at the 3d level, I'll use 2d for higher level planning, and overview, but I couldn't play the whole game there. I'm too much a fan of the musket smoke, and line firing. Especially at this more tactical level of play.

I read a comment somewhere now, that the original artwork is excellent, but that the map scale used in the game required heavy resizing down, and thus the subsequent pixellation. Going to higher resolutions of screen just exacerbates the problem. The artwork included in the bonus PDF accompanying the 1814 game contains all the figureheads and uniforms for the unit cards. It's a shame we can't get our sticky mitts on the higher quality unit images, and then perform the resizing or manipulating on the originals to make the unit art more exciting.

If I had the cash and could commission a game artist to draw me a musket firing soldier in four directions, uncoloured, I'm sure I could jigger around with it in Photoshop and come up with something showing a line of soldiers, but in a bigger higher resolution, and I'd be willing to colour the uniforms myself. Pixel by pixel if necessary. 

Maybe I should start a kickstarter to hire a graphic artist to get some decent mod art for Tiller games?

For my money, I think you are right about the adjustment method you've gone for Ian... and the nice thing about 3d mode (from a modding pov) is that you don't really need to adjust for the elevation levels using colour in this mode.

So far, looking real good imho.

Of course if you want to talk 2d mode - I found it very interesting that the non-Tiller designed Matrix published WWII title- I forget the name -but it used the exact same graphic method.... the very interesting part is that it didn't cop nearly as much fecal matter... and the double standard is very interesting to me from a hobbyist perspective.

$50 for that?

Originally Posted By trauth116 (11 MAY 2012 7:36pm)

 

Of course if you want to talk 2d mode - I found it very interesting that the non-Tiller designed Matrix published WWII title- I forget the name -but it used the exact same graphic method.... the very interesting part is that it didn't cop nearly as much fecal matter... and the double standard is very interesting to me from a hobbyist perspective.

 

 

Which game are you referring too?  (Not looking for a debate, honestly.  I've played a number of the Matrix lineup and often find myself comparing how each handles the appearance of counters.)

Is it the same artist for the ACW games?  It might be a figment of my imagination, but the ACW 3D units seem to have a crisper image.

Other than the painted maps of the Talonsoft games I have yet to find a 3D look that truly works for my eyes. Blurred view (as per above) calls attention to it for my eyes and makes it harder to look at than the stock artwork. A higher color depth is what is needed BUT I believe it would result in the games being difficult to load due to the graphics volume for the 1813-14 games (which have enough problems as it is on some PCs).

And remember the audience for this period of time. You do not find a lot of young kids playing these games. It is mainly guys between 35-70. And many of them are clinging to their old PC too. Finances, hatred of the computer generation - but love of the period, all of these factors must be taken into effect.

It is hard to find the perfect view as everyone is different. And that is mainly why John Tiller will not update the graphics to some higher standard. After going to the expense to do so everyone will still find fault no matter how beautiful they could be rendered. Someone would inevitably find a fault.

Graphics are like restaurant dishes: you must have a wide range of items on your menu and even then someone is always finding a hair in their food.

The computer, even with the latest revolution of graphics for the real time games, truly will never be able to render graphics at a low cost. At the price it would cost John to update the graphics to a level that would gain wider acceptance he would have to increase the cost of the game and thus price himself out of the market.

But then some folks are willing to dish out 80 bucks for the War in the East game that Grigsby did and frankly the graphics for that game do not startle me in any way.

For me: I could not afford to upgrade my system if it meant to go to a higher graphics standard in order to play these games. The card needed would cost something like 300 bucks. I do not have that kind of money. And the "beginning" PCs that Best Buy and the other retailers sell have a low level graphics card most of the time. A better card? Add in 160 bucks to the price.

I have a nice system (quad core 2.6 GHz, 8 GB RAM, NVidia chip VGA) but for graphics it will need an update eventually. I am trying to hold off on spending the money on a card. The one I want would run about 300 bucks more or less as I would want to add a cooling system to it.

If you play other games, then you can't cling on to your old PC's. 

I understand graphical content is a personal taste, but, I'm talking mainly about legibility, rather than style. In a lot of the unit graphics, I can't make out the men. The cavalry are reduced and pixelised so much they're just a blend of different current pixels.

It's not the old fashioned 2d sprites thats the problem. I'm not asking for fully rendered 3d models - which is where the real costs would come in at. I'm just asking for sprites that are not resized down so much that they are not legible. 

Now if your old and are used to these graphics, from days gone by, and looking at them is a comfort to you, then good for you. You've managed to accept graphical content from yesteryear, that were made for very much different screen resolutions then, than we have in common use today. 

I can only think of the wargamer genre, where such nonsense goes on. Games released today, with graphics from moons ago. Indie titles, done on the cheap, sporting a retro 8-bit look at least make their graphics legible. And they support zoom levels commensurate with  modern day resolutions.

Look at what Matrix/Slitherine are putting out nowadays, Unity of Command, Conflict of Heroes, even Schwerpunkt Ron Dockal produces his operational games at a zoom level that supports modern day resolutions. Panzer Campaigns has a 2d mode that is just too small, and only one or two of the titles are being "upgraded" to support a 2x mode. 

I mean come on. 

I think perhaps the whole part-time Tiller setup is often more interested in the research of new periods/battles and massaging them into the existing engine than any step forward, in terms of usability and progress.

I do bleat on a bit, and I'm not necessarily bashing the Tiller stuff for the sake of it. I've bought many titles, and I'm sat here in desperation, actually fiddling with the terrain of their games, in a vain attempt to make them more palatable to my equipment and my eyesight, and yes my taste.

I understand it's a wargamers badge of honour to play these titles, at these resolutions, with these graphics. "Who needs graphics anyway, we're wargamers!?" 

It's just frustrating to see these wonderfully researched, laboured over titles, come out in a tatty old coat they bought two decades ago! 

Although I'm no hardcore, long time wargamer, I love wargaming, I've come to the genre (a while back now) and I've more or less bought almost every title there is, but some of the stuff I really want to enjoy, is just a little worn and a little small and pixelated for my 1600x900 laptop screen. Not to mention my poor diabetic eyes. 

Anyway, sorry for yet another rant. I've already opened my wallet, and my mind is open, and I'm trying desperately to find a middle ground with this software so I can enjoy my delve into Napoleonic history. I'm not against HPS, Tiller or anyone, I'm just shouting up for the average gamer who needs a little more good looking sauce on his wargames.

If I could draw a single unit in a musket firing line, I'd be on it like a mofo. I would dedicate my life to it. Sadly, my sprite drawing skills leave a lot to be desired.

Not sure if any of this applies, but here goes.

I'm getting the sense that one of your complaints is that the figures on the 3D map are too small for you to see comfortably.

Part of the problem may be that your monitor is too large for the size of the image that is being represented.  People (myself included) have complained about this in the past.  If you stand back and think about the trend, monitors are going to tend to get bigger over time so that the manufacturers will have an excuse to sell something new.  This means that the images from HPS/JTS games will tend to get smaller and harder to see.  The powers that be attempted a stop-gap in coming up with the magnified 2D view that shows up in some of the Panzer Campaign games.  I almost never use it because I don't like the way it looks, but what will happen over time is that the older computers will die and get replaced with fancy new monitors, and then people will discover that they can no longer play their old favorites, not because of incompatible software, but because what shows up on the screens will be too small to see comfortably.  I have an old 19" monitor, so it's only begining to be a problem, but with one of the newer widescreen jobs things are going to approach the vanishing point.

So what to do.  Magnification view is a temporary fix, and won't really preserve the different series ten to fifteen years out into the future.  What is needed is a third zoomed in level that gives about the same screen coverage as the magnified view, but that's native to it so the individual pixels aren't so painfully large.  The other thing, since we're talking overhaul, is that the program needs to be changed so that the image bitmaps are scalable.  Right now if you mod something you can't double the resolution of what is actually used, and going forward, especially if the screens are going to get bigger, that will make a difference.  And finally, the color constraints on a lot of the bitmap images need to be lifted. This isn't a programming issue and could be instituted right now -- the artwork in the unit images, for example, is pretty high quality, but when you insist on reducing it to 8 - bit color it makes good work look pretty awful.

Getting back to your comments about seeing individual figures, I almost get the sense that you're asking for the figures in 3D to be larger.  If you think of the space that a hex is supposed to actually represent, if you made these things to scale the individual figures would almost look like pinheads.  The size of the individual buildings is exaggerated -- think of how small a figure would be to fit through a door if the figures were drawn to the scale of the buildings.  There's a civil war mod that has the units pretty much to scale (which I happen to use for the ACW games) and figures are very, very small.  Ezjax figures (which I prefer) are larger than the plain vanilla ones that are currently in use.  The figures that were larger were the old style from a few games back: I hope you're not calling for a return to those- you could see lots of detail but the overzixed scale made them unsightly.  I remember playing the old Combat Mission once after accidently hitting the button that resizes the squads a few times.  I almost screamed in horror when I saw these giant figures striding across the battlefield.  I hope that's not what you want. 

I don't know what the solution to your connundrum is, but next time you buy a monitor, just remember that bigger isn't necessarily better.

Originally Posted By Philippe (12 MAY 2012 10:29am)

I don't know what the solution to your connundrum is, but next time you buy a monitor, just remember that bigger isn't necessarily better.

I appreciate the difference in scale between old games and new monitors. 

I do want larger units. I don't want them to scale, I want a representation, that I can clearly see, nothing more. 

I don't buy my hardware based on decisions about games running old and out of date engines though.

I have many, many more games than my vast collection of wargames, and I don't have this problem with them. The problem as I see it, is the old game engine, and the old graphics. Not with the new hardware.

I'd take larger sprites, of just 3 or 4 men in a firing line. 

Look at the presentation of a game like that of Ravenmark, imagine it with Napoleonic troops and hexes. That would be nice, please.

Can I just say, I'm not trying to be clever, or flippant and upset the community here. I'm just trying to get across my opinion, it's more of a feeling, like theres something I must be missing. I realise this isn't a problem that will likely get "fixed", and many wargamers don't see it as a problem at all!

I appreciate the feedback from the wargamer community here, I'm just telling it how I see it that's all. I have this notion that wargaming can be for the masses, and my tastes come from many years of gaming in all sorts of genres - plus I haven't really got a board wargaming background - so I might appear to be the insolent newcomer mouthing off about one of the most revered and established wargame developers. I don't mean to be. 

Originally Posted By Sgt_Rock (12 MAY 2012 8:41am)

 

It is hard to find the perfect view as everyone is different. And that is mainly why John Tiller will not update the graphics to some higher standard. After going to the expense to do so everyone will still find fault no matter how beautiful they could be rendered. Someone would inevitably find a fault.

+1

Thank God (JT?) we can mod these games.

Originally Posted By spelk (12 MAY 2012 10:49am)

Originally Posted By Philippe (12 MAY 2012 10:29am)

I don't know what the solution to your connundrum is, but next time you buy a monitor, just remember that bigger isn't necessarily better.

 

I appreciate the difference in scale between old games and new monitors. 

I do want larger units. I don't want them to scale, I want a representation, that I can clearly see, nothing more. 

 

I don't buy my hardware based on decisions about games running old and out of date engines though.

 

I have many, many more games than my vast collection of wargames, and I don't have this problem with them. The problem as I see it, is the old game engine, and the old graphics. Not with the new hardware.

 

I'd take larger sprites, of just 3 or 4 men in a firing line. 

 

Look at the presentation of a game like that of Ravenmark, imagine it with Napoleonic troops and hexes. That would be nice, please.

And Ravenmark fits on a screen the size of an iPhone!

 

 

Thanks for posting that screenshot.  I think your vision of what these games should look like has very little in common with what I would ever want to see. 

I never play the Panzer Campaigns games in 3D, but try to use 3D as much as possible with the Napoleonics.  So though I can't relate to your aesthetic, I can at least see where you're coming from. 

You may have already tried this, but what you might want to do is to build a grass bitmap that only uses solid colors.  As an aside, I experimented with building simplified 3D grass out of my 2D grass bitmaps for Panzer Campaigns and found that it worked very well.  There was just enough swirling in the parchement texture that things didn't look too flat, and it didn't distract from the units themselves.  I think the key here is to realize that 3D figures in Panzer Campaigns need to be symbolic, whereas in Napoleonics I, at least, prefer to a representational table-top miniature effect.

So if you get tired of the blurred effect, feel free to cannibalize my 2D terrain if you need a different kind of texture. 

Stupid software seems too fiddly for me to manage

I should mention that I am limiting my comments to the way the maps are set up (and of course - as I said in 2d only) .... it would be Combat Command

and I am basing my comments on the screenshots shown on this thread (offsite if it matters)- which looked to be the originals.

http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=61482

I am also not necessarily talking about anything other than it appears to be the exact same method of assembling a map -one layer on another.

Originally Posted By Philippe (12 MAY 2012 11:18am)

Thanks for posting that screenshot.  I think your vision of what these games should look like has very little in common with what I would ever want to see. 

Oh sure, they're VERY stylised in Ravemark (and based in fantasy), but I'm more trying to get across the fact that you can legibly see the units.

How about something less stylised, but a bit more towards the traditional wargaming miniatures, like those used for Tin Soldiers - I know they're actually 3d models, but 2d sprites could be made big and visible like this, I'd imagine.

Originally Posted By Philippe (12 MAY 2012 11:18am)

So if you get tired of the blurred effect, feel free to cannibalize my 2D terrain if you need a different kind of texture. 

I appreciate your input Philipe, and I can see I might be tinkering with my Napoleonic Tiller games for a long time yet, so I'm sure to use some of your mods for inspiration.

Another thing you might want to play with is to reduce the saturation of the terrain bitmaps relative to the unit bitmaps. That should make the units stand out more.

When I eventually produce the 1814 mod or the next version of the Leipzig mod, if I have the time and the energy I'll actually be reducing the saturation on the units to tone down some of the day-glo colors.  So I wouldn't recommend increasing the saturation on the units, but reducing it on the terrain should have the desired effect (and you can always lighten it and blur it a little for good measure). 

I posted a light terrain mod for the Nappy games based on Jisons excellent PZC Mapmod over at the Blitz.

It's available in the nappy forum within the Black Powder and Cold Steel section.

Again, why the hell can I not post screenies and files directly from my PC to this site !!!.

I can post on any other wargame site which I visit with no problem whatsoever.