Good for them.  It appears they learned something from the SotS2 fiasco after all.

"Today Paradox Interactive decided to cancel Magna Mundi. It will not see the light of day under the current set up: Universo Virtual (UV) will not be part of this project any more.

The reasons for cancelling the contract with Universo Virtual include the following:

- Lack of progress; we have seen this project drag on and the code we have gotten has not shown significant improvement for many months. Some old and known problems persists and new ones appear with each delivery.

- Lack of trust; the leadership of UV has given a sunshine version of the project to Paradox and reacted with irritation and anger when we have pointed out obvious problems with the deliveries. It has come to a point where they claim the project is done, and the game is ready for release – despite the many critical issues found and reported on our end.

- Internal strife within the MM team; we have gotten information from members within the MM team desperate to save the project whom report to us that the project lacks active leadership. Key personnel in the project see what Paradox sees but instead gets silenced by the UV leadership.

All in all, these are not circumstances under which we can work with a team and it will now stop. At this point we have no more news than the above."

Yes it seems so!  If it's as bad as they make it sound (or just are lead to believe themselves) then it sounds like the right call.

Personally I think it is quite a bad news.

Most probably it also means that the old EU2 engine is completely dead now. 

Originally Posted By doomtrader (20 JUN 2012 12:44pm)

Personally I think it is quite a bad news.

 

Most probably it also means that the old EU2 engine is completely dead now. 

Not me, I'm more than happy they would nix a project than throw it out to the public half finished like most of their releases.

They really need to work on something NEW and INNOVATING something we haven't seen before.

"Official" quote from their forum:  http://forum.universo-virtual.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4291

Originally Posted By doomtrader (20 JUN 2012 12:44pm)

Personally I think it is quite a bad news.

 

Most probably it also means that the old EU2 engine is completely dead now. 

It was a mod for EU3, turned into a (now dead) release project.

Since Paradox has zero credibility and has never hesitiated to lie in the past, I am suspicious. I am especially suspicious because Paradox has never hesitated to put out a broken game in the past themselves. As others have noted, this would be a (welcome) drastic change to their previous behavior.

Obviously UV did not hesitate to take this to court, so they must have faith in their position. I can't help but also note that Paradox issued a bunch of petty shots at UV while making the announcement. Paradox is very confused about what constitutes professional behavior, and especially confused about what constitutes libel. 

Good and bad.

Good because they cancelled a faulty product.

Bad because they did it in an unprofessional way.

Also, I wonder what's the publising contract between the devs and Paradox look like.  Clearly there should be specific grounds for cancellation, etc.

Originally Posted By cicerno (20 JUN 2012 7:21pm)

Since Paradox has zero credibility and has never hesitiated to lie in the past, I am suspicious. I am especially suspicious because Paradox has never hesitated to put out a broken game in the past themselves. As others have noted, this would be a (welcome) drastic change to their previous behavior.

 

Obviously UV did not hesitate to take this to court, so they must have faith in their position. I can't help but also note that Paradox issued a bunch of petty shots at UV while making the announcement. Paradox is very confused about what constitutes professional behavior, and especially confused about what constitutes libel. 

Cicerno...this is your last warning. If you cannot talk about issues involving Paradox without resorting to insults and threats you will not talk about Paradox at all.  In fact, you won't talk about anything because you'll be banned.

I understand you may be dissatisfied with Paradox products you've purchased in the past and you have every right to present rational, honest, reasoned opinions about that.  However, you are clearly trolling now and only looking to attack Johan, so please stop it.

Well, I can see to some degree what cicerno is saying, but I don't have such a dim view of Paradox. While there have been releases that have been buggy, in many cases this is due to extremely ambitious nature of the game itself. For instance, many people griped about Paradox after HOI3 was released. Sure there were bugs, but the bugs were fixed and it is an excellent game by any reasonable standard. For a company that has made such great games like HOI and EU series, they don't deserve such harsh criticism that cicerno is leveling at them.

As for the issue at hand, that Carlos person sounds like he is in denial, and that sounds like the problem described in the Paradox press release. I mean, who actually thinks that this tiny developer has some sort of "legal team". That might have a lawyer, but he makes it sound grandious.

I honestly haven't followed the game, but it sounds like it definately deserved to be cancelled.

I completely agree with jomni, that cancellation was done in a completely unprofessional way.

Originally Posted By doomtrader (21 JUN 2012 12:01am)

I completely agree with jomni, that cancellation was done in a completely unprofessional way.

Agree 100%.  Regardless of the reason for cancellation, the two companies should have just kept the specifics between the two of them and just told the customers it was cancelled in general terms.  Sure, all of us would have loved to known the gossip and real reasons, but in the end I don't think it shows either party in a positive light.  Especially with any other third parties wanting to do business with Paradox, this likely will make them think twice.

The unprofessional party was Universo Virtual who was given an opportunity over two years ago to make something unique and failed miserably, even after several extentions to try and fix things. No matter the rose colored reports and videos of the past several months, Universo Virtual were simply incapable of developing this to completion. In hindsight, the warning signs were plain to see from the posts from the past several months. The final developer video was just bizarre and just confirms the state of denial. Paradox can be some people's favourite kicking dog at times but this clearly isn't one of them imo.

It is striking the difference between how Pdox handled the 'breakup' with Ageod and this. Obviously they must have much more respect for Phillippe and company (no one would say Ageod hasn't completely earned that respect of course).  Pdox handled that well from a PR standpoint, but this announcment about magna mundi really looks like amateur hour. Absolutely no reason whatsoever for the recriminations and innuendos.

Here's what the announcement should have said:

Today Paradox Interactive regrets to announce the cancellation of Magna Mundi. Due to a series of setbacks and lack of progress, we are not able to move forward with the game in its current set up. Paradox will no longer be working with Universo Virtual (UV). We want to thank our gaming community and fans for their interest in Magna Mundi, and while this project has now been shelved indefinitely, we will certainly keep you informed if anything develops wih it in the future.

-- really as simple as that. 

sandman: 

You are 100% right.  No need to cast aspersions.  A simple announcement like the one you provided would have been the professional way to do it.  (Although the actual announcement provides myriad openings for gossip.)

I agree with the sentiment we need not hear all the trash from one side nor the other- and it is extremely unprofessional. I've parted ways with dev companies before in pretty much ways that could write a TV drama series but I do not, nor ever would devulge such details nor even the names of the parties involved for that matter.

On another note and a much bigger and important point is what effect this will have on other projects. To refresh memories Paradox released the EUII engine for exactly the purpose of the modding community to have a way to dev games with little more than an idea and some time. Terms were under the PD umbrella and all that- one I would not have personally been interested in but nonetheless I supported the move because I support the small independants trying to break into the buisness.

But the sad truth is modders come in all shapes and sizes-and that is a community I am very well familiar with and sadly after many sour experiences I for one will never work within or with such a community again. They tend to be incredabily thinned skinned and ego-centric (talking about a lone modder) that has always done everything themselves suddenly trying to work with others. The truth is most can't. They leave, or worse, sabatouge the project when (idea not taken up and included, the other guy's a week late with his part, his idea was better, so on and so on.)

 the typical modder does his project alone-then releases and enjoys 10 page threads on how great his mod is (and thus how great he is) and if at any time someone enters said tread with a criticism this is when you see the temper tantrum of a 3 year old rolling on the floor---I kid you not.

Trying to make a "TEAM" out of 5 or 7 such individuals is often more wishful daydreaming than reality. 2 guys might work and often do but after that not so much-  unless someone with very very good leadership and people skills is at the helm this is usually the result.

So I just wonder when the idea and plans with the EUII just fizzle? Because this will not be the first time nor the last this kind of thing happens. I expect it to be quite common in fact.

Wow, I can't believe Paradox trashed them like that.  Don't they have any lawyers?  That's begging  to get sued.  You don't talk that way about your business partners.

Big mistake.

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (20 JUN 2012 8:56pm)

Originally Posted By cicerno (20 JUN 2012 7:21pm)

Since Paradox has zero credibility and has never hesitiated to lie in the past, I am suspicious. I am especially suspicious because Paradox has never hesitated to put out a broken game in the past themselves. As others have noted, this would be a (welcome) drastic change to their previous behavior.

 

Obviously UV did not hesitate to take this to court, so they must have faith in their position. I can't help but also note that Paradox issued a bunch of petty shots at UV while making the announcement. Paradox is very confused about what constitutes professional behavior, and especially confused about what constitutes libel. 

 

Cicerno...this is your last warning. If you cannot talk about issues involving Paradox without resorting to insults and threats you will not talk about Paradox at all.  In fact, you won't talk about anything because you'll be banned.

 

I understand you may be dissatisfied with Paradox products you've purchased in the past and you have every right to present rational, honest, reasoned opinions about that.  However, you are clearly trolling now and only looking to attack Johan, so please stop it.

I'm sorry. Could you clarify where my 'insults and threats' are in this post? 

Could you point out whch of these opinions are not rational?

1) Paradox has lied in the past.   --> I offer their forum posts before the launch of HOI3 as exhibit 1 of many....

2) Paradox has put out broken games at release ---> HOI3 again, but I offer any and all of their games as further proof....

3) This would be a drastic change in theior behavior -- > Others in this very thread have pointed out how this change of direction would be good news...

4) UV did not hesitate to take this to court --> As noted earlier inthe thread by UV

5) Paradox issued a bunch of petty shots at UV --> As noted by the Paradox quotes and agreed to be fact by numerous others on this thread...

6) Paradox is confused by what constitutes professional behavior --> as reasoned from above evidence and also noted by many in this thread...

7) Especially confused by what constitutes libel --> from the response by UV to Paradox

As I see it, each and every statement is based on facts and agreed to by other people on this thread. They are rational, honest, reasoned opinions.

If you disagree that any of the above are reasoned, rational opinions please specify because I don't see it. I certainly don't see how any of them are insults since each and every statement is an assertion of fact backed up by evidence. I am completely baffled by the assertion that I made a threat in that post as I am sure you will be when you read back through it.

A lot of what you say could be accurately applied to Paradox as well and would explain not only this situation but their past behavior.

Originally Posted By ghostryder (21 JUN 2012 7:04pm)

I agree with the sentiment we need not hear all the trash from one side nor the other- and it is extremely unprofessional. I've parted ways with dev companies before in pretty much ways that could write a TV drama series but I do not, nor ever would devulge such details nor even the names of the parties involved for that matter.

 

On another note and a much bigger and important point is what effect this will have on other projects. To refresh memories Paradox released the EUII engine for exactly the purpose of the modding community to have a way to dev games with little more than an idea and some time. Terms were under the PD umbrella and all that- one I would not have personally been interested in but nonetheless I supported the move because I support the small independants trying to break into the buisness.

 

But the sad truth is modders come in all shapes and sizes-and that is a community I am very well familiar with and sadly after many sour experiences I for one will never work within or with such a community again. They tend to be incredabily thinned skinned and ego-centric (talking about a lone modder) that has always done everything themselves suddenly trying to work with others. The truth is most can't. They leave, or worse, sabatouge the project when (idea not taken up and included, the other guy's a week late with his part, his idea was better, so on and so on.)

 

 the typical modder does his project alone-then releases and enjoys 10 page threads on how great his mod is (and thus how great he is) and if at any time someone enters said tread with a criticism this is when you see the temper tantrum of a 3 year old rolling on the floor---I kid you not.

 

Trying to make a "TEAM" out of 5 or 7 such individuals is often more wishful daydreaming than reality. 2 guys might work and often do but after that not so much-  unless someone with very very good leadership and people skills is at the helm this is usually the result.

 

So I just wonder when the idea and plans with the EUII just fizzle? Because this will not be the first time nor the last this kind of thing happens. I expect it to be quite common in fact.

 

 

Originally Posted By ghostryder (21 JUN 2012 7:04pm)

 

 

But the sad truth is modders come in all shapes and sizes-and that is a community I am very well familiar with and sadly after many sour experiences I for one will never work within or with such a community again. They tend to be incredabily thinned skinned and ego-centric (talking about a lone modder) that has always done everything themselves suddenly trying to work with others. The truth is most can't. They leave, or worse, sabatouge the project when (idea not taken up and included, the other guy's a week late with his part, his idea was better, so on and so on.)

 

 the typical modder does his project alone-then releases and enjoys 10 page threads on how great his mod is (and thus how great he is) and if at any time someone enters said tread with a criticism this is when you see the temper tantrum of a 3 year old rolling on the floor---I kid you not.

 

 

Hahah!  Quite true.  I've seen a number of modder tantrums and ego-rides on public display in the past. 

I always laugh when they're trying to assert that their modding work is Copyrighted and tell people they can't use any of their mod.  Even though asking should be a common courtesy, I've seen plenty EULAs that state that anything created to be used with a company's software belongs to said company so they could technically do whatever they want with the mods somebody made to their games. 

yeah don't get started with the modding community. I modded heavily for Bethseda games and I was okay with anyone using my mods in part or whatnot. I cannot say that for other modders that were popular in Morrowind days. the best modders of that era, and a few stull are active-is Qarl (mostly texture packs but also The underworld), Emma (best companion mods) and a couple others. However others like Alienslof, Karana and Newman of BB have all left in disgust- I've worked with all of them but the new breed.....no thanks.

I was actually signing up to talk about another topic and I noticed this because I had been reading the 73 page thread on the Paradox Forums.

The only person here in the wrong is Ubik. Period. Paradox did nothing wrong. This game is 15 months late and it was only supposed to take 12 months. Paradox gave Ubik and UU 27 months to complete the game and they failed. Furthermore Ubik claims that the gold master he sent Paradox was ready for release and it was not. Numerous MM developers have weighed in about how they sent complaints to Ubik about the game not being ready or on target and were silenced. The majority of people on the Paradox forums think that Ubik is insane if he thinks he can sue Paradox for anything. If anything Paradox should sue Ubik for wasting a lot of their time and money supporting his game when he had no clue what he was doing.

There is a HUGE problem with game modders thinking they are actual game developers when they aren't and when all the real work was done by the company who created the game and engine that they mod.

Instead of saying how hypocritical it is of Paradox to cancel the game due to bugs, it might be more revealing to consider that even Paradox considers this game to be too buggy to release. That is a statement of the utmost power IMHO. Furthermore, MM as a game has an audience far smaller than the already small audiences of Paradox strategy games. Some players estimated that the gross profit for players purchasing the game even for $40-60 dollars wasn't even $50000 dollars. And we have the example of FtG to show that mod fandoms are not large enough to support a commercial release.

Originally Posted By MoLAoS (23 JUN 2012 4:12pm)

I was actually signing up to talk about another topic and I noticed this because I had been reading the 73 page thread on the Paradox Forums.

 

The only person here in the wrong is Ubik. Period. Paradox did nothing wrong. This game is 15 months late and it was only supposed to take 12 months. Paradox gave Ubik and UU 27 months to complete the game and they failed. Furthermore Ubik claims that the gold master he sent Paradox was ready for release and it was not. Numerous MM developers have weighed in about how they sent complaints to Ubik about the game not being ready or on target and were silenced. The majority of people on the Paradox forums think that Ubik is insane if he thinks he can sue Paradox for anything. If anything Paradox should sue Ubik for wasting a lot of their time and money supporting his game when he had no clue what he was doing.

 

There is a HUGE problem with game modders thinking they are actual game developers when they aren't and when all the real work was done by the company who created the game and engine that they mod.

 

Instead of saying how hypocritical it is of Paradox to cancel the game due to bugs, it might be more revealing to consider that even Paradox considers this game to be too buggy to release. That is a statement of the utmost power IMHO. Furthermore, MM as a game has an audience far smaller than the already small audiences of Paradox strategy games. Some players estimated that the gross profit for players purchasing the game even for $40-60 dollars wasn't even $50000 dollars. And we have the example of FtG to show that mod fandoms are not large enough to support a commercial release.

I don't think people have an issue with them canceling the relationship, the issue is with "how" they canceled it by publishing their specific issues in the public domain.  Should have kept it simple and discrete.

a whole bunch of people were actually complaining that they wanted to know MORE of the details. its not like paradox came out about a bunch of people's names. they just provided general details as to why they cancelled it. and even after that they had fanbois and people involved in the project as devs whining about stealing their ideas and code and all sorts of crap. also there are people in this thread who actually think ubik has a case against paradox. and you think they gave out too MUCH information?

Originally Posted By MoLAoS (23 JUN 2012 5:32pm)

a whole bunch of people were actually complaining that they wanted to know MORE of the details. its not like paradox came out about a bunch of people's names. they just provided general details as to why they cancelled it. and even after that they had fanbois and people involved in the project as devs whining about stealing their ideas and code and all sorts of crap. also there are people in this thread who actually think ubik has a case against paradox. and you think they gave out too MUCH information?

We will have to agree to disagree....it doesn't matter to me who is right or wrong in the dispute, both parties should have been discrete and handled their private business behind closed doors.