Originally Posted By Rayfer (24 JUN 2012 1:19pm)

I don't understand the 'add-on's should be free' attitude.....patches that fix broken game play mechanics promised at time of sale should be free, but add-on's are different.   You get what you paid for when you made the original puchase, and knew what you were getting and not getting at the time of that purchase.  When add-on's are offered there should be cost....that's how companies make money and continue to exist.  That a competitor company decides, for whatever reason, to offer some add-on's for free has nothing to do with it, if they can do it and continue to thrive, grow and make money....then more power to them.    Book and movie sequels aren't free....and they really are nothing more than add-on's to the original story.  If I buy a laptop then later decide to 'add-on' external speakers.....I'll have to pay for them.

I'm with you.  Not sure why new should be free.  

Originally Posted By Petrus58 (24 JUN 2012 12:35pm)

So I assume that those who object on principle to a 'paid update' for CMBN will obviously not be purchasing the forthcoming paid update for CKII?

Actually you get the UPDATE for FREE it's only the DLC to be able to play MUSLIMS that you pay for IF you want it. You need to read what Johan et al says when they talk about updates vs patches. Patches are FREE, expansions/DLC cost just like any other expansion or DLC.

That a competitor company decides, for whatever reason, to offer some add-on's for free has nothing to do with it,

Sorry, but, fo many it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Competition is that for a reason, if you can't keep up you go bellyup. It will be the difference in a sale or nosale in many cases. People in general usually go where the deals and fairness and quality customer service is. I don't know many people who buy just to support some insignificant company because they charge more and are unfair to their cusomers. Seen a lot of those types of places go OUT of business in my days.

Also your parables about books and movies and even music would be creditable IF software was "returnable" like books and movies and music cds or even RESELLABLE like the same. See there's something about software developers and publishers that think they are ABOVE all else and shouldn't have to be RESPONSIBLE for anything. Thus, why the buckup to overcharging or charging extra for a PATCH and calling it an upgrade or expansion or DLC. I'll always be against that type of attitude and business practices.

We have kicked around this ball of game companies marketing strategy for a long time.

Just like the DRM thing.  Presumably they have studied the market and are making the choices

they do with forethought.  These companies operate to make money, not to provide a service.

If they do both IMHO they will reap the rewards.  We have seen the terrible effects when the

accountants get in charge of any entertainment industry...creativity is often out the window.

For those who like a free wheeling capitalist market.....this is it.  Marketing studies have shown

some products when greatly marked down on Steam or GamersGate make REALLY big profits.

Not just volume but profits.  I must assume the various companies are aware of this.                                                                                                                                                                                               I am still more than a little ruffled at Paradox because I have bought many of their products

at full price and then found them not only charging for a patch (expansion, Nyuk!, nyuk!) to make

it work but then putting the whole thing on sale MONTHS later for a fraction of what I paid.

Even though I like their products and will continue to buy them they have essentially said to me:

"Thanks for your full price support.  Now shut up and f*ck off with your complaints. Please come again!"

Well guess what? No more first day purchase at full price, ever.  Matrix/Slitherine have always been

good to me and so I buy most of their products regardless of price.

That being said in such a long-winded way I find it irritating when a fellow gamer says:

"I really wanted this product but since it isn't free I have been robbed." A lot of you guys wouldn't buy

it if it cost more than $2 so your comments are not just pointless but stupid.

If the glove don't fit you must...something I can't remember where i was going with that.

cheers

Wolverine101...I respect your opinion and you are absolutely correct that to many it is everything.....and you and those others have every right to feel that way and not buy the add-on's.  But to others it isn't everything....myself included.  Paying for additional content is the norm in most every business there is.  Cars, computers, phones, clothes, car insurance....etc.

Ps.  I don't understand your comment about games not being resellable.....ebay and amazon.com have thousands of used games for sale, I have bought and sold them myself....it is a thriving part of those sites?  There is even a part of these forums exclusively for 'sell or trade'  HPS and Matrix games are commonly resold and/or traded.

Originally Posted By Hexagon (24 JUN 2012 5:18am)

Problem is when in ... lets see 1 year after release CM: Italy they anounce CM: Battle of the Bulge as stand alone game with new version of engine 3.0 and you need pay to update all games with 2.0 version.

 

you dont NEED to pay anything Hexagon, if you dont want, like it, cant afford it, then dont buy it, everything youve supported up until version whatever will still work - its a shop, for luxuries - there is no NEED

Originally Posted By Wolverine101 (24 JUN 2012 1:36pm)

Originally Posted By Petrus58 (24 JUN 2012 12:35pm)

So I assume that those who object on principle to a 'paid update' for CMBN will obviously not be purchasing the forthcoming paid update for CKII?

 

Actually you get the UPDATE for FREE it's only the DLC to be able to play MUSLIMS that you pay for IF you want it. You need to read what Johan et al says when they talk about updates vs patches. Patches are FREE, expansions/DLC cost just like any other expansion or DLC.

Methinks you protest too much and need to read up what constitutes a patch and an Upgrade as BFC has described it

Originally Posted By Wolverine101 (24 JUN 2012 1:36pm)

That a competitor company decides, for whatever reason, to offer some add-on's for free has nothing to do with it,

 

Sorry, but, fo many it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Competition is that for a reason, if you can't keep up you go bellyup. It will be the difference in a sale or nosale in many cases. People in general usually go where the deals and fairness and quality customer service is. I don't know many people who buy just to support some insignificant company because they charge more and are unfair to their cusomers. Seen a lot of those types of places go OUT of business in my days.

 

Also your parables about books and movies and even music would be creditable IF software was "returnable" like books and movies and music cds or even RESELLABLE like the same. See there's something about software developers and publishers that think they are ABOVE all else and shouldn't have to be RESPONSIBLE for anything. Thus, why the buckup to overcharging or charging extra for a PATCH and calling it an upgrade or expansion or DLC. I'll always be against that type of attitude and business practices.

 

Competition is a great thing. However, I am reminded of another American aphorism - 'If you build it, they will come' - with the caveat if it is any good that is. If it isn't then offer a free copy to try and drum up business and maintain a community. Though I don't know what you do after that if all you hear is crickets. Maybe join a group of one and protest too much on forums?

There are far too many other games out there that are just as interesting to get all worked up over any particular one.

Truer words were not spoken.

Originally Posted By Nefaro (23 JUN 2012 8:22pm)

Paid update? 

 

Bleh.

 

Not surpised a bit.

You act like it's just an update. It's not, it's intirely new content, new units, new battles and campaigns, siginificant improvements to commands, engine, and the editor.

Originally Posted By Pak40 (24 JUN 2012 3:42pm)

Originally Posted By Nefaro (23 JUN 2012 8:22pm)

Paid update? 

 

Bleh.

 

Not surpised a bit.

 

You act like it's just an update. It's not, it's intirely new content, new units, new battles and campaigns, siginificant improvements to commands, engine, and the editor.

 

 

Although I agree with you that the "update" will be more than typical patches, not sure I saw that new battles/campaigns would be included when updating an older engine like CMBN, unless I missed that somewhere.

Originally Posted By Rayfer (24 JUN 2012 2:23pm)

Wolverine101...I respect your opinion and you are absolutely correct that to many it is everything.....and you and those others have every right to feel that way and not buy the add-on's.  But to others it isn't everything....myself included.  Paying for additional content is the norm in most every business there is.  Cars, computers, phones, clothes, car insurance....etc.

 

Ps.  I don't understand your comment about games not being resellable.....ebay and amazon.com have thousands of used games for sale, I have bought and sold them myself....it is a thriving part of those sites?  There is even a part of these forums exclusively for 'sell or trade'  HPS and Matrix games are commonly resold and/or traded.

Well I'm talking about the "new standard" of most streamlined and now Paradox and Battlefronts DRM schemes so tight that you cannot sell them legally (read those EULA's sometimes as many of them say "You can't sell, transfer, giveaway etc. etc as you are buying a LEASE not ownership and the publishers/developers maintain that ownership). Try selling a game you bought on STEAM to someone? It's going to get worse before it gets better also with so many things going to the cloud you'll be "renting" games moreso than owning any. Of course right now there is a loophole around them but eventually that will get closed as well when they start attaching some code to each and every computer out there and games attached to that code and that computer.

What you see on ebay mostly these days is old DOS games, old Windows 98/ME/XP titles or NEW games. I don't see a lot of USED games anymore of present day games bought on Steam and even Gamersgate. Yes, you can still transfer ownership of Matrixgames games and probably Shrapnel but that's getting down to about it.  

Actually what caused the discontent is that people thought that CMBN will be the platform for ALL WW2 modules in the pipeline.  Now with this new development, CMBN is now obsolete and only has one module.  The rest wil lbe based on CM Italy. 

Looks like many people are still thinking that games are a commodity.  But modern computer games are services just like other software.

linux is free, and has a lot of games that are free. But CM and some others don't run on it.

Originally Posted By Petrus58 (24 JUN 2012 12:35pm)

So I assume that those who object on principle to a 'paid update' for CMBN will obviously not be purchasing the forthcoming paid update for CKII?

CK2 still gets the engine updates, no matter the extra DLC content.  One side effect is that everyone with the base game can still play others with add-ons, because their game gets updated.

Easy and straight to the point reasoning, there.    Paradox blows away Battlefront's policies these days.

After buying their whole Commonwealth package three months ago, I'll already be obsolete.   Looks like I'll continue that way too.

Lets see.

1-Battlefront release a new game from an old serie using a new engine, FULL new engine.

2-They say that are going to release at least 3 add-ons for it.

3-They release first DLC

4-3 months later they announce a new game from same serie BUT as stand alone and with a few engine improvements, call the engine 2.0 and say "if you want old game with new features pay".

Now if you want last engine version you need pay and your money used on first game and DLC is nothing because you need buy a new full game... well, Battlefront do oposite they say and not to improve gamer experience...

With old CM games you pay for 3 games, in new CM2 you need pay now 2 full games and lets see how many DLCs... and wait to see 3rd game with 3.0 engine that force you pay for patchs in the 2 first games... and you dont have the 50% of original game content.

Originally Posted By jomni (24 JUN 2012 7:08pm)

Actually what caused the discontent is that people thought that CMBN will be the platform for ALL WW2 modules in the pipeline.  Now with this new development, CMBN is now obsolete and only has one module.  The rest wil lbe based on CM Italy. 

 

Not sure where you picked that information up but it is false. The fans and players of the game are anything but discontent. The next module for CMBN will be Market Garden(Version 2) which will bring CMBN & CW up to the latest engine. If you decide to purchase CMBN or any of the modules, CW or MG, after Version 2 has been released then all of them will be based on the latest engine. No obsolescence unless you opt out.

Originally Posted By Zonso (25 JUN 2012 6:17am)

Originally Posted By jomni (24 JUN 2012 7:08pm)

Actually what caused the discontent is that people thought that CMBN will be the platform for ALL WW2 modules in the pipeline.  Now with this new development, CMBN is now obsolete and only has one module.  The rest wil lbe based on CM Italy. 

 

 

Not sure where you picked that information up but it is false. The fans and players of the game are anything but discontent. The next module for CMBN will be Market Garden(Version 2) which will bring CMBN & CW up to the latest engine. If you decide to purchase CMBN or any of the modules, CW or MG, after Version 2 has been released then all of them will be based on the latest engine. No obsolescence unless you opt out.

 

True. CMBN will be upgraded with the new engine.

CM Italy will be a parallel product kicking off the new engine.

CMSF will *not* be upgraded with the new engine. Instead a sequel to CMSF will be released in the future.

Originally Posted By Yskonyn (25 JUN 2012 6:30am)

 

 

True. CMBN will be upgraded with the new engine.

 

LOL.  No.

Pretty sure BF stated that you have to pay to get your CMBN & Commonwealth updated.   Pay or buy the new premium-priced expansion.  So that's:  Pay or Pay, for an update.

 Could the "Italy" campaign (with "upgrades") have been released as a module (paid of course) for CMBN?

It's been a long time since I originally bought them but weren't CM: Beyond Overalord, CM: Barbarossa to Berlin and CM: Afrika Korps all separate games?  Each iteration added some improvements to the game engine, but each was a separate purchase.

Not sure what the surprise is here.  

I am not sure if I am getting the message here.

It seems to me that what many are angily posting about

can be descibed in this little haiku:

Wargamers crying

Because they are not getting

Video games free

cheers

Originally Posted By Queeg (24 JUN 2012 1:26pm)

Originally Posted By Rayfer (24 JUN 2012 1:19pm)

I don't understand the 'add-on's should be free' attitude.....patches that fix broken game play mechanics promised at time of sale should be free, but add-on's are different.   You get what you paid for when you made the original puchase, and knew what you were getting and not getting at the time of that purchase.  When add-on's are offered there should be cost....that's how companies make money and continue to exist.  That a competitor company decides, for whatever reason, to offer some add-on's for free has nothing to do with it, if they can do it and continue to thrive, grow and make money....then more power to them.    Book and movie sequels aren't free....and they really are nothing more than add-on's to the original story.  If I buy a laptop then later decide to 'add-on' external speakers.....I'll have to pay for them.

 

I'm with you.  Not sure why new should be free.  

 

 

Not only that but good niche games with plans for future expansion are going to be a bit on the expensive side.  The CM series has always been one of my favorite sets of games and it is good to know they are not just doing well, but plan on continuing to do well.

But of course I like all kinds of games and I'm always happy to see game-makers make some money and continue to expand.

Originally Posted By Hexagon (25 JUN 2012 5:32am)

Lets see.

 

1-Battlefront release a new game from an old serie using a new engine, FULL new engine.

2-They say that are going to release at least 3 add-ons for it.

3-They release first DLC

4-3 months later they announce a new game from same serie BUT as stand alone and with a few engine improvements, call the engine 2.0 and say "if you want old game with new features pay".

 

Now if you want last engine version you need pay and your money used on first game and DLC is nothing because you need buy a new full game... well, Battlefront do oposite they say and not to improve gamer experience...

 

With old CM games you pay for 3 games, in new CM2 you need pay now 2 full games and lets see how many DLCs... and wait to see 3rd game with 3.0 engine that force you pay for patchs in the 2 first games... and you dont have the 50% of original game content.

 

From a programming point of view it makes a lot of sense -- you don't have to make a special dead-end patch, you just make a standard upgrade that covers CMBN and have that in all succeeding modules.  For me that is a lot less confusing than having a patch specially made and tested to go nowhere.

Originally Posted By Queeg (25 JUN 2012 9:54am)

It's been a long time since I originally bought them but weren't CM: Beyond Overalord, CM: Barbarossa to Berlin and CM: Afrika Korps all separate games?  Each iteration added some improvements to the game engine, but each was a separate purchase.

 

Not sure what the surprise is here.  

They just released the Commonwealth expansion 3 months ago, which is when I decided to try it.   I have doubts that the update they're releasing (for a charge) has been done in the past few months, along with the whole Italy pack.  

Considering the game was released a year ago, and an add-on 3 months ago.. there's not much more BF can cut off from post-release update support of their games.  From their own site:

Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy released!

Tuesday, 17 May 2011

CM:BN - Commonwealth Forces released!!!

Monday, 05 March 2012

If I had known that they were just gonna drop CMBN so quickly, in favor of a "new" updated version, I wouldn't have purchased it such a short time ago.   If you're happy in continuing to encourage such policies, then I hope you enjoy that line being moved closer & closer in the future, too.   I'm not supporting it anymore.

Originally Posted By Nefaro (25 JUN 2012 8:02am)

Originally Posted By Yskonyn (25 JUN 2012 6:30am)

 

 

True. CMBN will be upgraded with the new engine.

 

 

LOL.  No.

 

Pretty sure BF stated that you have to pay to get your CMBN & Commonwealth updated.   Pay or buy the new premium-priced expansion.  So that's:  Pay or Pay, for an update.

 

 

But if you buy any new module or expansion you get everything patched.  Seems logical anyway.

. 

Originally Posted By Nefaro (25 JUN 2012 10:59am)

Originally Posted By Queeg (25 JUN 2012 9:54am)

It's been a long time since I originally bought them but weren't CM: Beyond Overalord, CM: Barbarossa to Berlin and CM: Afrika Korps all separate games?  Each iteration added some improvements to the game engine, but each was a separate purchase.

 

Not sure what the surprise is here.  

 

They just released the Commonwealth expansion 3 months ago, which is when I decided to try it.   I have doubts that the update they're releasing (for a charge) has been done in the past few months, along with the whole Italy pack.  

 

Considering the game was released a year ago, and an add-on 3 months ago.. there's not much more BF can cut off from post-release update support of their games.  From their own site:

 

Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy released!

Tuesday, 17 May 2011

 

CM:BN - Commonwealth Forces released!!!

Monday, 05 March 2012

 

If I had known that they were just gonna drop CMBN so quickly, in favor of a "new" updated version, I wouldn't have purchased it such a short time ago.   If you're happy in continuing to encourage such policies, then I hope you enjoy that line being moved closer & closer in the future, too.   I'm not supporting it anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what is the new Sins of a solar empire then ?  Or any one of many other Paid for upgrades that come out by numerous other companies - such as the new Civ 5 package ? 

your argument is laughable - you act like BF were the first lot to do things this way ...

I personally am glad they dont listen to rubbish like yours - if what they are doing keeps them in business then I will support and buy everything they put out. Combat mission represents the single most value for dollar of any game I have ever bought. Really - to spout the crap about them you do just shows a complete and utter ignorance of what it takes to survive doing what they do. Long my voices such as yours be ignored. Nothing - in anything they are doing represents a situation where you cant play what you paid for - it simply represents a situation where you cant play what you havent paid for.