After watching the progression of the previous thread about the atrocities committed against Germans after WW2, it became apparent that the general consensus here was that The Holocaust, since its occurrence, has overshadowed many other genocides and atrocities against humanity. I then ask question pertaining what makes one atrocity worse then another, and what are the reasons for The Holocaust overshadowing others. If human life is the determining factor, why isn't the post-WW2 Great Chinese Famine and the genocides of Mao a common discussion? If the techniques are the determining factor, why isn't Pol Pot's genocide often mentioned?

HERE is a site listing the "Top 5" genocides in history. It's obviously based on the numbers of lives lost, but it doesn't reflect what seems to be the focus of many a discussion--The Holocaust is number 1 in that regard.

So, I have a few questions to ask those here:

What atrocities has The Holocaust overshadowed that deserve more of the spotlight?

Why has this overshadowing occurred?

What makes one atrocity more atrocious than another? Is it the human lives lost, techniques and circumstances, or a mixture of several different factors?

Well one that springs to mind is the Rape of Nanking that is all but forgotten in the West, a truly horrendous descent into barbarism. Anyone interested in this horrible episode should read Iris Changs excellent book on the subject. 

Pol Pot & Cambodia as you have mentioned,  is another that is all but forgotten history in the West.

My opinion is that the sheer horror of Nazi brutality and the almost unimaginable scale of industrialised killing just put's all other similar events in the shade, and places them lower down the scale, because most people just look at the bottom line.

People seem to forget though that the Nazi's were mere apprentices in the art of mass murder when compared to Stalins NKVD.

As to your third point, 'What makes one atrocity more atrocious than others', I feel they are all as bad as one another when viewed from the individuals perspective. Each individual act is tradegy. One has to try to look at the situation through the eyes of victims, because only then can we get an inkling of what was going through the mind's of those involved.

Just my two cents!

This is a ridiculos thread in extremely poor taste.

Well I disagree. Many books have been published on this subject and it is a legitimate discussion for debate, however unpleasant.

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (20 OCT 2012 8:25pm)

This is a ridiculos thread in extremely poor taste.

Well I have to agree. Change the title to something like - "what atrocities are unknown or have been forgotten in the west due to the singular lack of education in our schools"  and I might have more time for it.  Genocide isnt some xfactor beauty contest, and the fact other atrocities are less well known in the west has everything to do with the lack of education in our schools about history in all its aspects than one particular genocide winning the beauty contest. Distasteful, stupid and A THREAD THAT COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT OF WHY THOSE GENOCIDES ARE LESS WELL KNOWN. In asia Hitler is virtually unknown so the question is completely misworded in any case as the person asking the question is showing his own western ignorance in suggesting that the Pol Pot genocide or armenian massacres are less relevant or known to the people who live in that part of the world. Believe me - as events in the East China sea prove at the moment - the chinese certainly havent forgotten the rape of nanking even if your average high school student in the US or UK knows nothing about  it.

and this - "People seem to forget though that the Nazi's were mere apprentices in the art of mass murder when compared to Stalins NKVD." has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard said anywhere. If you knew anything about history you would know that the reasons for the killings were completely different in both reasons and execution. That one managed to kill a few million more is about the most irrelevant thing I can think of.

Even the link the OP includes misses the point. The 6,000,000 number is just the figure widely quoted for the jewish holocaust. If you were to include all the deaths that hitler could be held accountable for in the same way stalin was or Mao - then the number would be of equivalence.

It is a stupid populist question that holds no interest for any proper student of history aside from a few nutjob holocaust deniers.

I rarely post here anymore. This thread has reminded me why. Comparing atrocities is the worst kind of insensitivity, crass and ridiculous.

There is a reason why some 200 posters with literally tens of thousands of posts under their belt combined and years spent contributing to this site have left. The utter tastelessness of this thread illustrates part of the reason why.

@Empire101

Dont mind these guys. Three of the four posters (Jarhead0331, Gusington and Steelgrave) are managment over at another gaming site. Theyve gotten quite well at spamming the wargamer.com forums and why wouldnt they? Wargamer.com is on a roll and theyre upset about that. Im sure the moderators here will take care of them soon.

Back to the discussion. The holocaust was definately a bad thing. I dont think anyone here is down playing that fact. I do think that the holocaust's great attention in the western world is due to western-centrism.

I'm not sure that I agree that the deaths caused by famine under Mao should be included.  I always saw genocide as an intentional act. While Mao's Great Leap Forward was idiotic, I don't think his intended goal was to wipe out large swaths of his population (Unlike Stalin who wanted to kill off the Ukranians).  It's more a case of democide than strictly genocide.

If we expand the umbrella to include democide, then Hong Xiu Quan, leader of the Taiping Rebellion should be on the list.  Second deadliest war ever fought (just behind WWII) and they did most of their killing with pointy sticks, not firearms.

@ Silent

You do have a point here.  But what about the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution with 30 million systematicly killed? This isnt talked about much in western schools.

Yes, I agree those  30 million were deliberate.  I was referring only to those who died of the famine brought on by the Great Leap Forward policies. 

As for what's taught in western schools now, I couldn't say.  When I was a student, we did cover a fair bit of Chinese history, but only from the end of WWII onwards.

Well, here is one that is most likely controversial. Unfortunately the article are in danish so not many will understand it. Its apparently based largely on american historians tho. I did rise my eyebrows on reading the numbers. Undoubtly not all will agree and argue how deliberate pat of the deaths were.

http://politiken.dk/debat/profiler/herbener/ECE1708802/de-amerikanske-folkemord/

A small snip that gives some figurs and sources plus a sentence ppl should understand here combine with numbers should give u an idea about the theme of the article. A small tip, indianere = indians.

Adskillige forskere kalder befolkningskollapset – eller substantielle dele af det – for et folkemord eller holocaust. Ja, ifølge den amerikanske professor David Stannard er det ”the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world.”

Man kender af gode grunde ikke det præcise antal indfødte i Amerika, da Columbus kom. Men moderne forskere anslår, at det var enormt.

Ifølge den amerikanske professor Russell Thornton var der i Amerika in toto godt 72 millioner indianere. Ifølge David Stannard var der mellem 75 og 100 millioner. Ifølge den amerikanske antropolog Henry Dobyns var der mellem 90 og 112 millioner.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

Originally Posted By DBeves (21 OCT 2012 6:07am)

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (20 OCT 2012 8:25pm)

This is a ridiculos thread in extremely poor taste.

 

 

 

and this - "People seem to forget though that the Nazi's were mere apprentices in the art of mass murder when compared to Stalins NKVD." has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard said anywhere. If you knew anything about history you would know that the reasons for the killings were completely different in both reasons and execution. That one managed to kill a few million more is about the most irrelevant thing I can think of.

 

 

It is a stupid populist question that holds no interest for any proper student of history aside from a few nutjob holocaust deniers.

To be honest I should have qualified that statement by saying I was talking about the 1930's.... not once the war started.

There is absolutely no need to start hurling insults and being rude.

And another thing, by slipping in the comment about holocaust denial you inferred that the OP and myself were supporting that idea!!? Outrageous!!

It goes to show you cannot have a mature debate about this horrible subject without children running around screaming that the bogeyman is coming. 

Originally Posted By Empire101 (21 OCT 2012 11:26pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (21 OCT 2012 6:07am)

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (20 OCT 2012 8:25pm)

This is a ridiculos thread in extremely poor taste.

 

 

 

and this - "People seem to forget though that the Nazi's were mere apprentices in the art of mass murder when compared to Stalins NKVD." has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard said anywhere. If you knew anything about history you would know that the reasons for the killings were completely different in both reasons and execution. That one managed to kill a few million more is about the most irrelevant thing I can think of.

 

 

It is a stupid populist question that holds no interest for any proper student of history aside from a few nutjob holocaust deniers.

 

To be honest I should have qualified that statement by saying I was talking about the 1930's.... not once the war started.

There is absolutely no need to start hurling insults and being rude.

 

And another thing, by slipping in the comment about holocaust denial you inferred that the OP and myself were supporting that idea!!? Outrageous!!

 

It goes to show you cannot have a mature debate about this horrible subject without children running around screaming that the bogeyman is coming. 

A debate about what ? Read my response to yours and the OP's writings and I am denegrating the basis of the actual question not any factual information about it. So what are you actually "debating" ?. And I call em as I see them, if I see dumb I call it dumb. Whether you like it or not - this argument is the starting point of all holocaust deniers - I have no idea whether you are one or not - so dont put words in my mouth. The holocaust doesnt "over shadow" anything - we just dont teach things that dont fall in our own particular world. If a train crashes in bangledesh and kills 200 people it is still item 4 on the news in europe, if it makes it at all. The same thing applies here.

Others would be Stalins killing of his own people (I think larger numbers were killed than the holocaust) and the Armenian genocide.

I am not sure that anything tops the holocausts for coverage and cruelty though. Apart from maybe that Japanese secret scientific research organisation. Cannot remember its name right now. 

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Depends how far you want to go back. Genghis Khan would rate as one of the worst of all time.

The Romans also killed whole tribes iirc. 

How many Indians died exactly in the indian wars? Someone on your link claims 12 million.

Originally Posted By DBeves (22 OCT 2012 1:06am)

Originally Posted By Empire101 (21 OCT 2012 11:26pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (21 OCT 2012 6:07am)

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (20 OCT 2012 8:25pm)

This is a ridiculos thread in extremely poor taste.

 

 

 

and this - "People seem to forget though that the Nazi's were mere apprentices in the art of mass murder when compared to Stalins NKVD." has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard said anywhere. If you knew anything about history you would know that the reasons for the killings were completely different in both reasons and execution. That one managed to kill a few million more is about the most irrelevant thing I can think of.

 

 

It is a stupid populist question that holds no interest for any proper student of history aside from a few nutjob holocaust deniers.

 

To be honest I should have qualified that statement by saying I was talking about the 1930's.... not once the war started.

There is absolutely no need to start hurling insults and being rude.

 

And another thing, by slipping in the comment about holocaust denial you inferred that the OP and myself were supporting that idea!!? Outrageous!!

 

It goes to show you cannot have a mature debate about this horrible subject without children running around screaming that the bogeyman is coming. 

A debate about what ? Read my response to yours and the OP's writings and I am denegrating the basis of the actual question not any factual information about it. So what are you actually "debating" ?. And I call em as I see them, if I see dumb I call it dumb. Whether you like it or not - this argument is the starting point of all holocaust deniers - I have no idea whether you are one or not - so dont put words in my mouth. The holocaust doesnt "over shadow" anything - we just dont teach things that dont fall in our own particular world. If a train crashes in bangledesh and kills 200 people it is still item 4 on the news in europe, if it makes it at all. The same thing applies here.

 

Oh dear......I'm so sorry you lost your temper.......

There was a reported post within this thread.

After closer inspection, there does not appear to be any rule violations herein.

-Curtis Szmania

Most certainly a valid discussion. Its a tough discussion, but I can't see why people are getting their panties in a bunch. I think modern society wants to forget about atrocities and tends ignores ones in progress. Any civilized discussion concerning them should be welcomed.

Originally Posted By DBeves (21 OCT 2012 6:07am)

 

 The 6,000,000 number is just the figure widely quoted for the jewish holocaust. If you were to include all the deaths that hitler could be held accountable for in the same way stalin was or Mao - then the number would be of equivalence.

 

That in itself is a point. There was many a million persons that Hitler killed, that weren't Jewish, but this is not often told and rarely detailed.

Why do we hear more about the Jewish Holocaust?

Could it be that they were 'winners' (not a perfect word for what they suffered, I know.)

They came out on the winning side. They were 'championed' if you will by the winners of the war.

A lot of others who have been killed didn't win. The Cambodians, the Russians under Communism, the Armenians during WW1, the Chinese through numerous points in history, The Irish Potato Famine deaths, just to name a few of those peoples who the rest of the world didn't want to hear too much about.

The media has more than a bit to do with what we, as a population focus on.

I think it was the cold, calculated, merciless, and extremely regimented and efficient method by which the Germans/Nazis commited their crimes- this is why the Holocaust stands out in history. The execution of political enemies and exiling of millions to prison (never to return) almost can be viewed as history repeating itself. The casting of hundreds of thousands of people into a giant burning pit/vat of human fresh and fat (what the Nazis did in the closing months of the war) seems to have hit a historic low point of human depravity. I encourage everyone to read Maus I and Maus II- try and get a grip on what the Nazis did.

It is truly saddening and one of the reasons I will never have a positive outlook on human nature.

Originally Posted By Swatter (30 OCT 2012 10:14am)

I think it was the cold, calculated, merciless, and extremely regimented and efficient method by which the Germans/Nazis commited their crimes- this is why the Holocaust stands out in history. The execution of political enemies and exiling of millions to prison (never to return) almost can be viewed as history repeating itself. The casting of hundreds of thousands of people into a giant burning pit/vat of human fresh and fat (what the Nazis did in the closing months of the war) seems to have hit a historic low point of human depravity. I encourage everyone to read Maus I and Maus II- try and get a grip on what the Nazis did.

 

It is truly saddening and one of the reasons I will never have a positive outlook on human nature.

+1 Swatter.

Kids are good. Then they grow up.

Depraved, but not really new.

Queen Ranavalona I of Madagascar did much the same and worse to her political rivals in the 1840s-1860s. 

Journey From the Psychology of Evil to the Psychology of Heroism - Philipe Zimbardo who ran the Stanford prison experiment.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMoZ3ThW6x0

not for the faint hearted. I had to pause the video some times.