Let's say that the German General staff said to you that you are going to attack the USSR in June 1941.  "You run everything and I won't bother you at all.  If you lose then you get to fight the Russians in Berlin in 1945."

Now pick out a strategy or operational level wargame and go beat the Russians.

Which game would you choose?  My choice would be Gary Grigsby's War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945.  However I have not played it but it looks good.  I have played OAW1 but little Russian units keep sneaking behind my lines to grab victory points.  I guess the one I would really play would be Panzer Corps.  (or Panzer General)

Or I could ask what would be the Eastern Front game that would make you feel like you are really running the whole theatre there as the top German general? 

Well they say Decisive Campaigns Case Blue is better than WITE.  Lesser scope but more fun and more nice little details.

Originally Posted By jomni (18 JUL 2012 5:42am)

Well they say Decisive Campaigns Case Blue is better than WITE.

This is a true statement.

Originally Posted By JaguarUSF (18 JUL 2012 5:55am)

Originally Posted By jomni (18 JUL 2012 5:42am)

Well they say Decisive Campaigns Case Blue is better than WITE.

 

This is a true statement.

 

 

A very true statement - WiTE is my single biggest gaming disappointment. Grigsby should take some lessons in game design from Vic.

In a nutshell, whats wrong with WITE?  I enjoyed it but it was too massive for me to manage.

Originally Posted By BlondKnight (18 JUL 2012 7:31am)

In a nutshell, whats wrong with WITE?  I enjoyed it but it was too massive for me to manage.

 Information overload leading to analysis paralysis and too many units to push around (game is played at the divisional level).

My favorite Eastern Front game remains Unity of Command, but I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on Case Blue, so that may change.

Originally Posted By BlondKnight (18 JUL 2012 7:31am)

In a nutshell, whats wrong with WITE?  I enjoyed it but it was too massive for me to manage.

To me it just feels so souless.  Instead of drawing you in, the game-play experience seems to want to keep you at arm's length.  When you launch an attack -- which is definitely a key element of a wargame! -- there should be some feeling of drama.  In WitE, the combat report pops up and I more often than not am confused by what occurred.  "yes I see numbers of casualties and who won.  But wait, what units were committed by HQ?  There were air units involved, and they did what?  I see that an engineering batallion did...something" and so forth.  No imagination went into finding a way to present important information cleanly and clearly.  Information is way too cluttered or abbreviated or hidden under 2 drill-down windows or spilling over margins and typing over other data. I find I spend more time wresting with the UI than playing the game.  Which is why I've stopped playing it, to my disappointment.

It's interesting that WitP does not make me feel this way at all.  There 2by3 did a far better job of finding a way to keep lots of information reasonably accessible and clear and elegantly presented, for the most part.  In a nutshell, WitP does draw you in, but playing WitE inspires a constant "Wait .. what?" feeling. 

I have WitE and now DC: Case Blue, I enjoy them both but find I hardly ever fire up WitE these days.  

For playing East Front it comes down to two favorites:

For Operational:  

For Tactical:  HPS Red Victory

It seems we're spoiled with Eastern Front titles nowadays..

My favourites, in no particular order:

Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue

Unity of Command

Schwerpunkt's Russo-German War.

War in the East seemed to show promise, and I was impressed that all the heavy detail could be left in the background, and the basics of chit shuffling and attacks was left at the front end, but ultimately the results display was too clinical, and lacked a decent level of user feedback.. sometimes less is more. Visual is better than tabular stats. Although NOT too visual SSG!

I've not played Case Blue yet but have Decisive Campaigns Warsaw - Paris (which is excellent) so am looking forward to playing Case Blue. The historical feel is IMO second to none. My only wish for this title is that there were more small scenarios, as IMO the operational level of the game lends itself to this. I hope Vic doesn't get sucked into the "bigger is better" mentality, and hopefully the opening of the editior will enable community scenarios. On an aside, I think North Africa would be great for this system, but lets see...(and hope!)

Ron's Russo German War is also a great game, a really excellent boardgame type game, and until DC I would probably have rated this as my my favourite - you really get the feel for the theatre - in particular the constraints both sides faced - and the "comparison with history" victory conditions is a great asset & really makes you want to give each scenario one more try. It will be interesting to see how his European WW2 war game handles the east front.

WITE - don't have it (too expensive) so can't comment directly, but have read all the reviews. I loved (& grew up on) Grigsby's 2nd front (aka War in Russia) & thought this was a good scale (Corps level) for the level of detail. However, going deeper, to division level, at a similar level of detail just turns something as vast as the eastern front into an accounting exercise, so I can't see myself buying it anyway.

TOAW - another good game, and I've enjoyed many an eastern front scenario, though it can at times feel a bit generic, I'd probably rate this third.

Gave the Unity of Command demo a shot but it was a little simplistic - guess there is an element of grog in me still.

Theres lots of great boardgames out there too, but I guess thats another thread...

Originally Posted By BlondKnight (18 JUL 2012 7:31am)

In a nutshell, whats wrong with WITE?  I enjoyed it but it was too massive for me to manage.

The detail is great. But it means nothing when its presented in a way where you can hardly understand anything thats going on.

The air war is a superfluous unfinished mess - and you have the choice either to ignore it entirely  - which a lot of players seem to think is the way to go - or launch into a tedious never ending fight with it.

I dont mind detail and effort - but the game has to make you feel its worth it and WiTE never has. DCCB on the other hand is a marvel of subtle design married with a game that really immerses you in its detail in an entertaining way. More to the point though - you can actually understand whats going on without having to read endles posts on a forum.

Hehe None! I don't like Eastern Front games. Now you goto Western Front and we can talk.

If I had to choose one though I would go with Panzer Command: Osfront and setup campaign modes. If I'm going to play eastern front it has to be tactical as I just have no desire for operational or grand strategic.

 Regarding WITE...

There are many design decisions in WITE that may baffle some gamers to the point of disbelief.  Even the revered WITP does not use some of these design decisions.

1) Stacking limit of only up to 3 units no matter what size.

2) Encicled units are very flimsy and stand no chance of survivial.

3) No political consequences for taking important cities.  There is no point in holding ground... it's all a battle of attrition.

4) No Stalin or Hitler that may influence your decisions.

5) You can completely forget the air war.

6) Game is too large to completely test. 

And I argree that it becomes soul-less due to the massive scope.  It's all about numbers like those Glantz books. 

WITE is a good study of history though.

I would really consider TOAW3 but I have not checked it out but hope too soon.  I just had problems with the TOAW1 AI and hope that #3 would be better.  In the meantime I look to Ostfront to give me a good beating.  Still play CMBB a lot though, looks like not many wargamers play it anymore.

Originally Posted By sandman2575 (18 JUL 2012 9:18am)

Originally Posted By BlondKnight (18 JUL 2012 7:31am)

In a nutshell, whats wrong with WITE?  I enjoyed it but it was too massive for me to manage.

 

 

To me it just feels so souless.  Instead of drawing you in, the game-play experience seems to want to keep you at arm's length.  When you launch an attack -- which is definitely a key element of a wargame! -- there should be some feeling of drama.  In WitE, the combat report pops up and I more often than not am confused by what occurred.  "yes I see numbers of casualties and who won.  But wait, what units were committed by HQ?  There were air units involved, and they did what?  I see that an engineering batallion did...something" and so forth.  No imagination went into finding a way to present important information cleanly and clearly.  Information is way too cluttered or abbreviated or hidden under 2 drill-down windows or spilling over margins and typing over other data. I find I spend more time wresting with the UI than playing the game.  Which is why I've stopped playing it, to my disappointment.

   

It's interesting that WitP does not make me feel this way at all.  There 2by3 did a far better job of finding a way to keep lots of information reasonably accessible and clear and elegantly presented, for the most part.  In a nutshell, WitP does draw you in, but playing WitE inspires a constant "Wait .. what?" feeling. 

 

Originally Posted By jomni (18 JUL 2012 10:01pm)

 Regarding WITE...

 

There are many design decisions in WITE that may baffle some gamers to the point of disbelief.  Even the revered WITP does not use some of these design decisions.

1) Stacking limit of only up to 3 units no matter what size.

2) Encicled units are very flimsy and stand no chance of survivial.

3) No political consequences for taking important cities.  There is no point in holding ground... it's all a battle of attrition.

4) No Stalin or Hitler that may influence your decisions.

5) You can completely forget the air war.

6) Game is too large to completely test. 

And I argree that it becomes soul-less due to the massive scope.  It's all about numbers like those Glantz books. 

WITE is a good study of history though.

 

Originally Posted By DBeves (18 JUL 2012 2:50pm)

Originally Posted By BlondKnight (18 JUL 2012 7:31am)

In a nutshell, whats wrong with WITE?  I enjoyed it but it was too massive for me to manage.

 

The detail is great. But it means nothing when its presented in a way where you can hardly understand anything thats going on.

The air war is a superfluous unfinished mess - and you have the choice either to ignore it entirely  - which a lot of players seem to think is the way to go - or launch into a tedious never ending fight with it.

 

I dont mind detail and effort - but the game has to make you feel its worth it and WiTE never has. DCCB on the other hand is a marvel of subtle design married with a game that really immerses you in its detail in an entertaining way. More to the point though - you can actually understand whats going on without having to read endles posts on a forum.

Fully agree with everything you guys said.  I waited for WITE for several years with great anticipation.  Bought it day 1 and played it heavily for a few months but never really loved the product. Haven't touched it since and what I've seen on the forums at Matrix in that time doesn't really give me any reason to try any of the new versions.  It's probably my greatest gaming disappointment as well.  Individual components of the game are astounding but when everything comes together it really is a disappointing mess which no amount of patching is going to fix it.  It needs a complete overhual.  Not very optamistic for WITW or the integrated system 2by3 invisions, but I hope they can pull it off.

I really like Battle of Moscow...

Of course, I won't play the Germans unless I have to.  I much prefer playing the Russians... on a cold winter day.. with the window open.

DC: Case Blue hands down. An absolute gem.

Originally Posted By Wolverine101 (18 JUL 2012 4:02pm)

Hehe None! I don't like Eastern Front games. Now you goto Western Front and we can talk.

 

If I had to choose one though I would go with Panzer Command: Osfront and setup campaign modes. If I'm going to play eastern front it has to be tactical as I just have no desire for operational or grand strategic.

You know Wolverine we all have to go to the Eastern Front sooner or later.  Sure you can beat the poor French and party with the South French babes but where is the fun in that?  Volunteer for the Eastern Front.  You can always write home there is still mail service via Minsk.

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

Now grab your thermal underwear and head to the Eastern Front!

Originally Posted By clifford1944 (25 JUL 2012 10:37am)

 

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

 

Ah yes, my favourite French joke. Always goes down well with my French colleagues.

On the tactical side I have to mention Graviteams "Achtung Panzer" series. 

Yes the interface is a bit odd and the patching procedure unnecessarily obtuse, but theres alot of little details that make it a very immersive experience.

I would resign rather than take that assignment.

Currently I'm playing Iron Front.  Pretty brutal representation of the late summer of 1944 just after the

Destruction of Army Group Center.

I think the Panther games East Front foray will be pretty good when it comes out.  It's going to cover

the winter of 1942-1943 from the Don to the Dneipr in small relatively small scenarios.  I'll try to

get Badanov to Tatinskya on Schedule.

Originally Posted By phantom (18 JUL 2012 1:27pm)

 

Theres lots of great boardgames out there too, but I guess thats another thread...

Oh.  I'm playing Roads to Leningrad occasionally and looking forward to Roads to Moscow.

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (25 JUL 2012 10:51am)

Originally Posted By clifford1944 (25 JUL 2012 10:37am)

 

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

 

 

Ah yes, my favourite French joke. Always goes down well with my French colleagues.

I plug in the French/German World War win ratio, but my calculator gives an error...

I felt the same about the French, until I heard about their battles in Vietnam and read "Street without Joy".

Changed my opinion.

Originally Posted By BlondKnight (25 JUL 2012 6:27pm)

I felt the same about the French, until I heard about their battles in Vietnam and read "Street without Joy".

Changed my opinion.

You are without doubt correct. The French can be ferocious and brave soldiers. Verdun etc were not fought by wimps. But everyone in Europe likes to have a tweak at their neighbour's tails for a little fun once in a while ;-)