Originally Posted By neopeius (25 JUL 2012 6:10pm)

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (25 JUL 2012 10:51am)

Originally Posted By clifford1944 (25 JUL 2012 10:37am)

 

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

 

 

Ah yes, my favourite French joke. Always goes down well with my French colleagues.

 

I plug in the French/German World War win ratio, but my calculator gives an error...

French vs German wins: Bouvens 1214 -- French

                                       Skamaldic 1554 -- German

                                       30-years-war  -- French

                                     Burning the Palatineate -- 1677 -- French

                                        Nine-years-war -- 1692 -- Draw

                                       Austrian Succession -- 1744 -- French

                                      Seven years war -- 1762 -- Draw

                                       Wars of Revolution -- 1801 -- French

                                       war of 1805 -- French

                                       War of 1806 -- French

                                       War of 1807 -- French

                                       War of 1809 -- French

                                       End of Napoleon Mark I -- German

                                       end of Napoleon Mark II -- German

                                       Risorgismento 1859 -- French

                                        Franco-Prussian 1871 -- German

                                       WWI -- French

                                        WWII -- French (or a draw -- 1940 vs 1944)

                         That's 12 French wins and 3-4 Draws versus 3-4 German wins

And as a Result France is on the UN security council at all times and Germany only occasionally.

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (26 JUL 2012 7:56am)

Originally Posted By neopeius (25 JUL 2012 6:10pm)

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (25 JUL 2012 10:51am)

Originally Posted By clifford1944 (25 JUL 2012 10:37am)

 

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

 

 

Ah yes, my favourite French joke. Always goes down well with my French colleagues.

 

I plug in the French/German World War win ratio, but my calculator gives an error...

 

French vs German wins: Bouvens 1214 -- French

                                       Skamaldic 1554 -- German

                                       30-years-war  -- French

                                     Burning the Palatineate -- 1677 -- French

                                        Nine-years-war -- 1692 -- Draw

                                       Austrian Succession -- 1744 -- French

                                      Seven years war -- 1762 -- Draw

                                       Wars of Revolution -- 1801 -- French

                                       war of 1805 -- French

                                       War of 1806 -- French

                                       War of 1807 -- French

                                       War of 1809 -- French

                                       End of Napoleon Mark I -- German

                                       end of Napoleon Mark II -- German

                                       Risorgismento 1859 -- French

                                        Franco-Prussian 1871 -- German

                                       WWI -- French

                                        WWII -- French (or a draw -- 1940 vs 1944)

 

                         That's 12 French wins and 3-4 Draws versus 3-4 German wins

 

And as a Result France is on the UN security council at all times and Germany only occasionally.

  

                                         

 

 

 Now seriously - only a frenchman could call WWII a win or a draw for the french. France is on the UN security council because of russian dead and american patronage.

Originally Posted By DBeves (26 JUL 2012 3:02pm)

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (26 JUL 2012 7:56am)

Originally Posted By neopeius (25 JUL 2012 6:10pm)

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (25 JUL 2012 10:51am)

Originally Posted By clifford1944 (25 JUL 2012 10:37am)

 

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

 

 

Ah yes, my favourite French joke. Always goes down well with my French colleagues.

 

I plug in the French/German World War win ratio, but my calculator gives an error...

 

French vs German wins: Bouvens 1214 -- French

                                       Skamaldic 1554 -- German

                                       30-years-war  -- French

                                     Burning the Palatineate -- 1677 -- French

                                        Nine-years-war -- 1692 -- Draw

                                       Austrian Succession -- 1744 -- French

                                      Seven years war -- 1762 -- Draw

                                       Wars of Revolution -- 1801 -- French

                                       war of 1805 -- French

                                       War of 1806 -- French

                                       War of 1807 -- French

                                       War of 1809 -- French

                                       End of Napoleon Mark I -- German

                                       end of Napoleon Mark II -- German

                                       Risorgismento 1859 -- French

                                        Franco-Prussian 1871 -- German

                                       WWI -- French

                                        WWII -- French (or a draw -- 1940 vs 1944)

 

                         That's 12 French wins and 3-4 Draws versus 3-4 German wins

 

And as a Result France is on the UN security council at all times and Germany only occasionally.

  

                                         

 

 

 

 Now seriously - only a frenchman could call WWII a win or a draw for the french. France is on the UN security council because of russian dead and american patronage.

  Well it is odd that despite supposedly being defeated, France came out of WWII with a relatively intact Colonial empire, relatively undamaged cities (compared to Germany, who despite apparently winning was utterly destroyed) and pretty low casualties.  One could give the French credit for playing a bad hand very well. 

  Moreover, if you really go into the 17th Century you see France steadily expanding at the expense of Germany, as in fact France did from say 1100 AD clear to the present.  If you count the numerous small 17th century wars, France beats Germany 4-5 to one so its just a long, long history of power that has gotten France onto the Permanent security council.  They have the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world after all.

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 8:16am)

Well it is odd that despite supposedly being defeated, France came out of WWII with a relatively intact Colonial empire, relatively undamaged cities (compared to Germany, who despite apparently winning was utterly destroyed) and pretty low casualties.  One could give the French credit for playing a bad hand very well. 

  Moreover, if you really go into the 17th Century you see France steadily expanding at the expense of Germany, as in fact France did from say 1100 AD clear to the present.  If you count the numerous small 17th century wars, France beats Germany 4-5 to one so its just a long, long history of power that has gotten France onto the Permanent security council.  They have the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world after all.

Oh, please. France was defeated in World War II. No amount of rationalization can alter that fact.

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 8:16am)

Well it is odd that despite supposedly being defeated, France came out of WWII with a relatively intact Colonial empire, relatively undamaged cities (compared to Germany, who despite apparently winning was utterly destroyed) and pretty low casualties.  One could give the French credit for playing a bad hand very well. 

Of course no one will harm the French... with Vichy France collaborating with Germany and Japan.  

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 8:16am)

Originally Posted By DBeves (26 JUL 2012 3:02pm)

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (26 JUL 2012 7:56am)

Originally Posted By neopeius (25 JUL 2012 6:10pm)

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (25 JUL 2012 10:51am)

Originally Posted By clifford1944 (25 JUL 2012 10:37am)

 

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

 

 

Ah yes, my favourite French joke. Always goes down well with my French colleagues.

 

I plug in the French/German World War win ratio, but my calculator gives an error...

 

French vs German wins: Bouvens 1214 -- French

                                       Skamaldic 1554 -- German

                                       30-years-war  -- French

                                     Burning the Palatineate -- 1677 -- French

                                        Nine-years-war -- 1692 -- Draw

                                       Austrian Succession -- 1744 -- French

                                      Seven years war -- 1762 -- Draw

                                       Wars of Revolution -- 1801 -- French

                                       war of 1805 -- French

                                       War of 1806 -- French

                                       War of 1807 -- French

                                       War of 1809 -- French

                                       End of Napoleon Mark I -- German

                                       end of Napoleon Mark II -- German

                                       Risorgismento 1859 -- French

                                        Franco-Prussian 1871 -- German

                                       WWI -- French

                                        WWII -- French (or a draw -- 1940 vs 1944)

 

                         That's 12 French wins and 3-4 Draws versus 3-4 German wins

 

And as a Result France is on the UN security council at all times and Germany only occasionally.

  

                                         

 

 

 

 Now seriously - only a frenchman could call WWII a win or a draw for the french. France is on the UN security council because of russian dead and american patronage.

 

  Well it is odd that despite supposedly being defeated, France came out of WWII with a relatively intact Colonial empire, relatively undamaged cities (compared to Germany, who despite apparently winning was utterly destroyed) and pretty low casualties.  One could give the French credit for playing a bad hand very well. 

  Moreover, if you really go into the 17th Century you see France steadily expanding at the expense of Germany, as in fact France did from say 1100 AD clear to the present.  If you count the numerous small 17th century wars, France beats Germany 4-5 to one so its just a long, long history of power that has gotten France onto the Permanent security council.  They have the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world after all.

 

 

also weren't a lot of those French victories against smaller germanic states not a united germany as such

Originally Posted By FlickJax (27 JUL 2012 8:38am)

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 8:16am)

Originally Posted By DBeves (26 JUL 2012 3:02pm)

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (26 JUL 2012 7:56am)

Originally Posted By neopeius (25 JUL 2012 6:10pm)

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (25 JUL 2012 10:51am)

Originally Posted By clifford1944 (25 JUL 2012 10:37am)

 

Here is a French joke for you:  Why do the French plant lots of trees by the roadsides?  So that the Germans can march in the shade.

 

 

Ah yes, my favourite French joke. Always goes down well with my French colleagues.

 

I plug in the French/German World War win ratio, but my calculator gives an error...

 

French vs German wins: Bouvens 1214 -- French

                                       Skamaldic 1554 -- German

                                       30-years-war  -- French

                                     Burning the Palatineate -- 1677 -- French

                                        Nine-years-war -- 1692 -- Draw

                                       Austrian Succession -- 1744 -- French

                                      Seven years war -- 1762 -- Draw

                                       Wars of Revolution -- 1801 -- French

                                       war of 1805 -- French

                                       War of 1806 -- French

                                       War of 1807 -- French

                                       War of 1809 -- French

                                       End of Napoleon Mark I -- German

                                       end of Napoleon Mark II -- German

                                       Risorgismento 1859 -- French

                                        Franco-Prussian 1871 -- German

                                       WWI -- French

                                        WWII -- French (or a draw -- 1940 vs 1944)

 

                         That's 12 French wins and 3-4 Draws versus 3-4 German wins

 

And as a Result France is on the UN security council at all times and Germany only occasionally.

  

                                         

 

 

 

 Now seriously - only a frenchman could call WWII a win or a draw for the french. France is on the UN security council because of russian dead and american patronage.

 

  Well it is odd that despite supposedly being defeated, France came out of WWII with a relatively intact Colonial empire, relatively undamaged cities (compared to Germany, who despite apparently winning was utterly destroyed) and pretty low casualties.  One could give the French credit for playing a bad hand very well. 

  Moreover, if you really go into the 17th Century you see France steadily expanding at the expense of Germany, as in fact France did from say 1100 AD clear to the present.  If you count the numerous small 17th century wars, France beats Germany 4-5 to one so its just a long, long history of power that has gotten France onto the Permanent security council.  They have the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world after all.

 

 

 

also weren't a lot of those French victories against smaller germanic states not a united germany as such

Generally against the Holy Roman Empire, so against a political entity larger than just Germany, but including Germany.

For example at Bouvines (1214), the Fench defeated an army led by the Holy Roman Emperor, that included troops from England and the Low Countries.

In the Nine Years War (call it a draw), the French fought all of Europe, but the HRE was still a major force unlike the War of Spanish Succession when Bavaria was on the French side (so you can't count that as France vs Germany).  You could say the same for 1805.

Originally Posted By Slick Wilhelm (27 JUL 2012 10:33am)

I love that smiley!

Originally Posted By Greybriar (27 JUL 2012 8:26am)

 

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 8:16am)

Well it is odd that despite supposedly being defeated, France came out of WWII with a relatively intact Colonial empire, relatively undamaged cities (compared to Germany, who despite apparently winning was utterly destroyed) and pretty low casualties.  One could give the French credit for playing a bad hand very well. 

  Moreover, if you really go into the 17th Century you see France steadily expanding at the expense of Germany, as in fact France did from say 1100 AD clear to the present.  If you count the numerous small 17th century wars, France beats Germany 4-5 to one so its just a long, long history of power that has gotten France onto the Permanent security council.  They have the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world after all.

 

Oh, please. France was defeated in World War II. No amount of rationalization can alter that fact.

They were defeated in 1940, but still came out on the winning side.  You can't have completely lost a war if you get to

occupy enemy territory at the end of the war. So defeat in 1940 is not the same as defeat in WWII.  Moreover, if Germany was

defeated, how can their enemy, France, have also been defeated?  In the end France won WWII, as is clear from the UN Charter which gives them a privileged seat on the security council along with the other victors. 

Anyone else remember what this thread was originally about?

This whole discussion has evolved into an exercise in historical displacement that calls to mind Belushi's immortal speech in Animal House:

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?  Hell no!!

maybe in this case....

Was it over when the French surrendered at Stalingrad?  Hell no!!

When the Soviets engaged Legio X on the Sambre, now that was a helluva battle.

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 1:02pm)

 

....but....

No ifs, ands, or buts. France was defeated in World War II.

I'm with Greybriar on this one.... France was soundly defeated in 1940, surrendering to Germany and being occupied until June 1944.  Had their displaced or free-French forces invaded and re-took their country, then perhaps the pendulum of victory could be argued to have swung back to their side.  But they didn't re-take their soverign territory alone.  They were liberated by Allied forces... not victorious.

Originally Posted By Greybriar (27 JUL 2012 2:41pm)

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 1:02pm)

 

....but....

No ifs, ands, or buts. France was defeated in World War II.

 

And if we are keeping count, twice

Once by Germany 

And then by the Allies vs Vichy France

OK seriously...Meng..How can you consider he 7 years war a  draw????? The French lost on the continent after getting bludgoened at Rosbach and Minden, lost India and also  all of its North American possessions.

Also, the war of the Austrian Succession was a victory for Prussia retaining Silesia. In the end, the rest was a draw with the only notabel French battlefield voctiry being Fontenoy and a lost opportunity at Dettingen.

Originally Posted By Greybriar (27 JUL 2012 2:41pm)

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (27 JUL 2012 1:02pm)

 

....but....

No ifs, ands, or buts. France was defeated in World War II.

 

And they won WWI.

How many World Wars did the Germans win?

Hence, my "divide by zero" comment.

wow is this ever off topic. can you start a new thread to discuss history of who won wars and let this thread be about east front games.

Originally Posted By jjdenver (28 JUL 2012 6:58am)

wow is this ever off topic. can you start a new thread to discuss history of who won wars and let this thread be about east front games.

Nope.  You can secede.

Hmmm.  If you are in a position to be defeated by both sides after supposedly being defeated by the

first enemy and in the end you are technically among the victors, this sounds like a draw at worst

and maybe sneaking by a hair to win on some technicalities (such as the complete obliteration of your

foes and a determined effort to include you amoung the victors and those who get to divide up the spoils).

So clearly 1940 was a defeat, but not necessarily defeat in the whole war.

Originally Posted By Mikeck (27 JUL 2012 7:31pm)

OK seriously...Meng..How can you consider he 7 years war a  draw????? The French lost on the continent after getting bludgoened at Rosbach and Minden, lost India and also  all of its North American possessions.

 

Also, the war of the Austrian Succession was a victory for Prussia retaining Silesia. In the end, the rest was a draw with the only notabel French battlefield voctiry being Fontenoy and a lost opportunity at Dettingen.

 

 

Okay.  so they lost the seven-years war.  It was very close though.  If empress Elizabeth had lived another few months, they would have won.

Meanwhile: France was Prussia's ally during most of the war(s) of austrian succession so that's a definite win for France.

Fontenoy -- a big win.  Napoleon remarked that it probably extended the life of the French Monarchy by two generations.