I often wonder why these guys put the amount of effort they do into coding the products. I mean realistically - how many copies would a game like Decisive Campaigns Case blue actually sell ? I presume Vic has a day job and does a certain amount of it out of love for a subject but that is some serious effort in there for something that produces vey little financial reward ?

Definitely "for the love of wargaming".

Originally Posted By DBeves (26 JUL 2012 3:11pm)

I often wonder why these guys put the amount of effort they do into coding the products. I mean realistically - how many copies would a game like Decisive Campaigns Case blue actually sell ? I presume Vic has a day job and does a certain amount of it out of love for a subject but that is some serious effort in there for something that produces vey little financial reward ?

With the right kind of publicity and advertising it could sell 10's of 1000's. Now that many developers and publishers can hit a world wide market there's a lot more opportunity to make more sales and money than there ever was. This is why I often wonder why they are so chinchie on printed manuals and boxed versions. I think they lose sales by not offering up this service. But, I don't know how many of us are left that prefer a printed manual and a box and cd. I will always want physical product as long as I can get it. I don't mind paying more for it either. What I do mind is paying more for all of that and getting a crap game inside with no ai to speak of and no real difficulty levels to challenge me.

I for one miss printed manuals; i cant stand reading pdf manuals and it does put me off buying some of the more complex games.

Vic is a full time developer - he has to rely on games revenue to live. I'd say at least 50% of our developers are like this. It's not a get rich quick scheme. 

Originally Posted By Iain McNeil (27 JUL 2012 2:12am)

Vic is a full time developer - he has to rely on games revenue to live. I'd say at least 50% of our developers are like this. It's not a get rich quick scheme. 

Ian have you thought about offering a paid for printed manual service with download games?

Originally Posted By Iain McNeil (27 JUL 2012 2:12am)

Vic is a full time developer - he has to rely on games revenue to live. I'd say at least 50% of our developers are like this. It's not a get rich quick scheme. 

Thanks Ian - thats interesting - I had always presumed all wargames were developed as part time projects. I know he not a millionare but I guess its nice to know that the hobby can at least support him putting food on the table.

Originally Posted By FlickJax (27 JUL 2012 3:16am)

Originally Posted By Iain McNeil (27 JUL 2012 2:12am)

Vic is a full time developer - he has to rely on games revenue to live. I'd say at least 50% of our developers are like this. It's not a get rich quick scheme. 

 

 

Ian have you thought about offering a paid for printed manual service with download games?

 

I suppose they have - but I would suspect with printing costs and shipping costs given the likely demand you would likely end up paying as much for the manual as the game ... would you really be prepared to do that ? I suspect there are valid financial reasons why companies stopped doing it ... I know they used to but like everything else in the world everything seems to be five times as expensive to do as it used to be - for absolutely no discernable reason.

Originally Posted By Wolverine101 (26 JUL 2012 9:40pm)

Originally Posted By DBeves (26 JUL 2012 3:11pm)

I often wonder why these guys put the amount of effort they do into coding the products. I mean realistically - how many copies would a game like Decisive Campaigns Case blue actually sell ? I presume Vic has a day job and does a certain amount of it out of love for a subject but that is some serious effort in there for something that produces vey little financial reward ?

 

With the right kind of publicity and advertising it could sell 10's of 1000's. Now that many developers and publishers can hit a world wide market there's a lot more opportunity to make more sales and money than there ever was. This is why I often wonder why they are so chinchie on printed manuals and boxed versions. I think they lose sales by not offering up this service. But, I don't know how many of us are left that prefer a printed manual and a box and cd. I will always want physical product as long as I can get it. I don't mind paying more for it either. What I do mind is paying more for all of that and getting a crap game inside with no ai to speak of and no real difficulty levels to challenge me.

 

 

Well I was talking about wargames specifically ... I cant imagine DCCB selling tens of thousands ?

Originally Posted By DBeves (27 JUL 2012 4:05am)

 

 

I suppose they have - but I would suspect with printing costs and shipping costs given the likely demand you would likely end up paying as much for the manual as the game ... would you really be prepared to do that ? I suspect there are valid financial reasons why companies stopped doing it ... I know they used to but like everything else in the world everything seems to be five times as expensive to do as it used to be - for absolutely no discernable reason.

 

Yeah, you could buy another game for the cost of it.

I just wish all the PDF manuals had a "Light" version, without any extra artwork and in black & white, so that it's easier to print at home or put on an E-reader.  Matrix has done that for a few games, but even they don't do it universally.    

I was happy to get a Kindle for primarily reading manuals, but a few of the junked-up PDFs with all the graphical crap slows it down to nigh unusable in those few cases. 

My guess is that there are services where you can send them a PDF and they could create a bound manual from it. I'm sure the per unit cost wouldn't be as good doing this on an individual basis then if a game publisher did this, but it is an option for those who deem it important. Heck, Kinkos could probably put together something halfway decent.

We already sell manuals with our games. If you chose a collectors edition it comes with a full colour manual. Not all games have that option. The collectors editions come as a full boxed copy with colour manual. 

Due to the printing costs we are probably going to have to raise the prcies of collectors editons in the near future to an additional $15 instead of $10, but you do have that option already.

These manuals are printed in batches and stored in our warehouses in Germany & the US. We have to print in batches of 3000 minimum to keep the costs down. 

We could add a print on demand service for manuals but the price would likely make them so unttractive nobody chsoe them. The quality is also not as good as the manuals we print now. It probably wouldn't be cheaper than getting a full collectors edition. To be hnoest we havent looked in to it as its a lot of work and we just dont see there being much demand. 

Originally Posted By Iain McNeil (27 JUL 2012 8:08am)

We already sell manuals with our games. If you chose a collectors edition it comes with a full colour manual. Not all games have that option. The collectors editions come as a full boxed copy with colour manual. 

 

Due to the printing costs we are probably going to have to raise the prcies of collectors editons in the near future to an additional $15 instead of $10, but you do have that option already.

 

These manuals are printed in batches and stored in our warehouses in Germany & the US. We have to print in batches of 3000 minimum to keep the costs down. 

 

We could add a print on demand service for manuals but the price would likely make them so unttractive nobody chsoe them. The quality is also not as good as the manuals we print now. It probably wouldn't be cheaper than getting a full collectors edition. To be hnoest we havent looked in to it as its a lot of work and we just dont see there being much demand. 

 

 

Thanks Ian, i'ts probably just me being old fashioned and nostalgic

I used to use the "both" option with Slitherine & Matrix... get the download version now, and have the physical copy on the way so I'd have the box & manual.  Over time, it seems more and more manuals are not printed at all, collector's editions notwithstanding, so getting the physical copy seemed a little redundent just to have a CD & a box.  Then Civ V came out, forcing me to get a Steam account, and I guess I was dragged kicking & screaming into the current way of doing distribution.

There for a time, I either printed the manual myself, and then took it to Kinko's to have it spiral bound.  That was cost-prohibitive as any decent-sized manual ran through my ink cartridges rather quickly.  For a manual or two I took the PDF file to Kinko's and had them print it up & spiral bound it.  Again, that was about as bad or worse as the manual could cost more than the game to have it done that way.

My solution, thanks to my beautiful wife, was her anniversary gift of a Kindle Fire.  PDF files on this thing are amazing, and its so easy to have it right there at my desk just like a printed version.  No more Alt-Tab to go back & forth from game to PDF manual.

With the games I have purchased from Steam during the Christmas sale last year, and over the months since, plus a few purchases from Matrix durng their Christmas sale and up to now, I figure the Kindle has just about paid for itself for not having to have those manuals printed up, or burning my ink cartridges myself here.

There are other eReader's available out there that might be able to read PDF files too I imagine.  Its an option anyway.

"I just wish all the PDF manuals had a "Light" version, without any extra artwork and in black & white, so that it's easier to print at home or put on an E-reader."   

Great Idea. I Can't tell you how many times I have skipped printing a manual because of all the stupid and needless artwork the manuals include. I really hate the colored backgounds in manuals that just eat up the ink when printed.

I went through a similar experience with game manuals that Blakjack did. And, like him, I ended up buying a Tablet; except I purchased a refurbished Acer Iconia Tab A200  with a 10.1" screen on sale for $160. I won't lie to you and tell you I like it just as much as I would a printed paper manual, but it's the best electronic solution I have found yet.

To be honest, I feel that we gamers wanting printed paper manuals with our brand spanking new retail boxed PC games are putting the cart before the horse. Due to patches, expansions, and other game changes, game manuals get outdated quickly and it is certainly too expensive for a game publisher to print a paper manual each time a game is modified and the manual needs to be updated. Perhaps a Collector's Edition of the game should not be released until after a game has been out for awhile to ensure the game manual is as up-to-date as possible. I really don't know what the answer is or even if there is one.

Kind of important then if you have liked Peoples Tactics & Advanced Tactics I & II & DC:WtP to support Vic by buying his new release.

Originally Posted By Iain McNeil (27 JUL 2012 2:12am)

Vic is a full time developer - he has to rely on games revenue to live. I'd say at least 50% of our developers are like this. It's not a get rich quick scheme. 

Originally Posted By Dale H (28 JUL 2012 12:54pm)

Kind of important then if you have liked Peoples Tactics & Advanced Tactics I & II & DC:WtP to support Vic by buying his new release.

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted By Iain McNeil (27 JUL 2012 2:12am)

Vic is a full time developer - he has to rely on games revenue to live. I'd say at least 50% of our developers are like this. It's not a get rich quick scheme. 

 

 

As I recall though I got a nice THICK manual when I got Advanced Tactics so I'm supporting those who support me.

I'm not a fan of the eastern front though so there will be very little support there for anyone....except those that are tactical battles like Panzer Command Osfront or Combat Mission Barbarossa though I play CMAK a lot more.

I just wish all the PDF manuals had a "Light" version, without any extra artwork and in black & white, so that it's easier to print at home or put on an E-reader.  Matrix has done that for a few games, but even they don't do it universally.    

....Agreed. An E-Reader version would be great. I could carry all the manuals on my Kindle (I've already got a few on there) but the PDF version is generally crap on an e-reader, costs a fortune to print - particularly with stupid pointless "arty" backgrounds and wears your eyes out on a PC screen - in short good for nothing really, other than to salve the producers consience by saying they've "included" a manual.