Dont waste your money.  I got it from the library a decade ago, got about three chapters in and couldnt get any farther.  It should come as no surprise that der Fuheur was a ranting lunatic, but I wasnt prepared for just how disjointed, and just plain crazy it was.

In hindsight I cant fathom how Germans didnt read that and see where he was leading them. 

Ho you're so funny, you make my day ... my dear Jarhead

Originally Posted By Rolph54 (10 AUG 2012 7:47pm)

Ho you're so funny, you make my day ... my dear Jarhead

No you don't.  You hate my guts.  Its ok though, we can still be friends.

That's more like it.

Let's continue the conversation

-Curtis Szmania

Originally Posted By Johnners (10 AUG 2012 6:36pm)

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (10 AUG 2012 5:42pm)

 

....

 

Bang on, chap.  I've seen several similar threads on other forums, and they always smoke out people with, how shall I say, "eccentric" view points.

 

This is a valid, important discussion.  Though I'm sure that a lot of players only adopt the "bad" side in games for the intellectual challenge, or sometimes (I do this) just to even up the numbers in MP servers, I think there are people out there who want to try to re-write history so that the "right" side triumphs.

 

As a community we should be aware of this.

 

As to the OP, playing wargames as Axis doesn't mean you 're anti-semitic, unless you hate Jewish people as well.

 

 

You should be aware that the world is such a happy place that John Lennon teaches us their are no "groups" of people and certainly no people that identify themselves as different from other peoples. We are all one happy peacefull group of planetary citizens.

Thus I declare that there are no germans, no jews, no Australians, no Iranians, no French, no english, no Russians etc etc.

I am sure nobody is naive enough to think that some people are in league with each other simply based on race. That is ludicrous.

Now can we just quit all of this nonsense and go back to being politically correct peoples.

Its wargaming. Its about the basic human behind the weapon. We are all the same when it comes down to war regardless of creed, ideology etc.

We now live in modern times where people no longer have racial boundaries and mix and integrate freely with each other. In the end it is about being a decent human being. Not about colour or race. That is why people no longer feel they cannot be individuals, they do not think they have to be attached to some sort of power group governed by a faction based on nation within a nation or racial group within a nation. Instead we are all individuals within one nation and further to that one world. We work together for the common good. To space, above and beyond!!!

Wargaming is NOT about race or colour but simply the man in the trench. Every nation has simple working men who just want to go back to their farms and live in peace after the war. They don't care about ideology or what their grand fuhrer wants. These are the people that wargames that I play at the squad level depict. German, American or any other nation.

The man shivering in the trench who just wants to defend his wife, kids and country. The different equipment and methods of waging war. Thats what I play for.

I would play the mongols and probably admire them for their excellent army training and tactics even though they are with regard to civilian policy & doctrine evil monsters!

What I find hard though to handle is playing an army that did commit attrocities on the front lines down to the common soldier.

Such as playing the french africans in italy - perhaps coming up in combat mission - and knowing they raped thousands of italian wemon in subways en masse. But in the end it is still about the army over all. Some armies are worse than others but ALL committed attrocities. But I like to believe there are good men in all and these are the ones that we are depicting. For our own comfort if nothing else.

Actually Nazi anti-semitism was racial & not religious at all.  And, at least on the Eastern Front, there was active participation in large-scale, racial genocide of another kind by the German armed forces as well.

One simply cannot equate the Allied and Axis collective behavior simply by considering the Allied bombing campaign against the Reich or the atomic destruction of two of Japan's cities in isolation as deliberate terror campaigns of atrocities against the German or Japanese people. Those may have been atrocities but the Germans & Japanese engaged in similar terror bombing & would have used atomic weapons if they had them.

Hitler's intention was to conguer, subjugate, enslave or exterminate large populations on the European continent. Hitler started & waged a war of aggression. His regime practiced genocide on an industrial scale. Ditto for the Japanese. The Allies defeated both & liberated those conquered peoples. There is a huge difference. It was, then, a contest on a large scale between good & evil.

Originally Posted By wdkruger (10 AUG 2012 1:53pm)

 I agree with Jarhead here.  The holocaust really had nothing to do with the war, and everything to do with Hitler and Nazism.  The systematic goal of wiping out a group of people based on religion was uprecedented... 

Originally Posted By jomni (10 AUG 2012 6:05pm)

Nefaro. If this thread goes downhill because of your comment then you know the consequences.

 

 

I see nothing wrong in what Nefaro wrote. Plus, it flushed out a couple of the "nazis were no worse than anyone else " brigade

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (11 AUG 2012 1:09am)

Originally Posted By jomni (10 AUG 2012 6:05pm)

Nefaro. If this thread goes downhill because of your comment then you know the consequences.

 

 

 

I see nothing wrong in what Nefaro wrote. Plus, it flushed out a couple of the "nazis were no worse than anyone else " brigade

I think the problem was more that Nefaro was being critical of another forum member, which has a tendancy to disturb the peace.  I'm sure the EIC values your opinion though.

Originally Posted By Jarhead0331 (11 AUG 2012 6:05am)

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (11 AUG 2012 1:09am)

Originally Posted By jomni (10 AUG 2012 6:05pm)

Nefaro. If this thread goes downhill because of your comment then you know the consequences.

 

 

 

I see nothing wrong in what Nefaro wrote. Plus, it flushed out a couple of the "nazis were no worse than anyone else " brigade

 

I think the problem was more that Nefaro was being critical of another forum member, which has a tendancy to disturb the peace.  I'm sure the EIC values your opinion though.

Yeah I was referring to Nefaro's knack of provoking a violent response from other members.  It's not about his opinions about the topic.

Originally Posted By jomni (10 AUG 2012 6:05pm)

Nefaro. If this thread goes downhill because of your comment then you know the consequences.

 

 

It certainly doesn't need my help, the way it looks.

The next thing I know you are going to try and tell me

that "Hogan's Heroes" wasn't true and that all the Germans

weren't like Schultz, Klink and Burcholder at all.  And that all

the frauleins weren't sexy blondes with berets and torpedo bras.

Those guys won the war for us and shoulda got Medals instead of dumb laughs. 

Dan. I watched that documentary once. I was once again heartened to see that none of the evil rumours were true.

Allied soldiers should have no fear of surrendering to the common good.

I am sure there are people of the Jewish faith that play the nazi side in board and computer games.

Originally Posted By Stoney (11 AUG 2012 8:13pm)

I am sure there are people of the Jewish faith that play the nazi side in board and computer games.

Now where would you possibly get a silly idea like that from?

But why skulls?

Originally Posted By MengJiaoRedux (10 AUG 2012 10:03am)

 ...And maybe it makes me feel better when I simulate killing millions of Germans in say Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue.  The dead Roumanians and Hungarians and Italians are just icing on the cake of slaughter...

 

now i am offended!

well just a little because:

"Was kümmert es die Deutsche Eiche wenn sich ne Sau dran wetzt "  ;-)

i duno from what nation and background you are and what trauma you are carrying around with you...

now on topic

playing the home team comes naturally for me.

And of course i am proud of the engineering skills and the achievements on the battlefield (frontline) of my ancestors. ... well and ashamed about what happened behind the frontline done by security forces of course!

(Military)History get always written by the victors, and IMHO noone should start throwing stones in the greenhouse.

just imagine, 150 years ago the Indian Wars would have finally ended with an Indian victory - maybe because the white men wasn't immune against some nasty virus picked up from the natives, and not the other historical way around. Custer would not be an admired tragic hero in the US, he would be seen as a war criminal for doing atrocities against women, children and elderly.

everybody is a child of the times and society he's living in and its way to simplistic to assume someone can imagine how  the 'average Joe in the street' in a given society 100, 200 or 500 years ago was ticking and why. hell nowadays teenagers can not even imagine a world without their beloved cellular, flat color TVs, INet,...from just one generation ago ... so how should i immerse in the inner world of someone growing up in post(apocalyptic)-WW1- times, on both sides of the frontlines

IIRC there is no single wargame were managing the Holocaust is touched (as a side show, cause its had influence on logistic-chains and may also gain the avatar in that grand strategy game some political points at the Wolfschanze, which could later be exchange into some reserve divisions released or a little less pressure on phaseline-achievements the Führer demands to be seen tomorrow or getting only dismissed... if lucky)

No honest customer would buy such a game, and nobody would publish it and take the sh##-storm from the media, if he would be so stupid to even dare it.

well, maybe a Iranian game studio would do it in Farsi-only for incountry-propaganda          

Originally Posted By MikeGER (13 AUG 2012 9:59am)

 

No honest customer would buy such a game, and nobody would publish it and take the sh##-storm from the media, if he would be so stupid to even dare it.

 

MikeGER:

Let's try to keep these words in R&P. I've already censored it.

-Curtis Szmania

Perhaps we should just do away with this thread altogether.  It's borderline distasteful to begin with.

Chances are that if you have to ask the question you probably are, and not because you prefer to play the Axis. 

That has very little to do with it.

The culture at large supplies people with a whole plethora of anti-semtic attitudes, and until someone sorts through his intellectual baggage he's going to be effectively clueless on a subject like this.

So telling someone who's borderline anti-semitic (to be generous about it) that he's not anti-semitic because he prefers to play the Nazis in wargames is probably not a great idea in the grand scheme of things.  He'll probably feel relieved and never bother examining some of his other attitudes which are a lot less benign. 

And that is not a mitzvah.

Originally Posted By Philippe (13 AUG 2012 12:45pm)

Perhaps we should just do away with this thread altogether.  It's borderline distasteful to begin with.

 

Chances are that if you have to ask the question you probably are, and not because you prefer to play the Axis. 

 

That has very little to do with it.

 

The culture at large supplies people with a whole plethora of anti-semtic attitudes, and until someone sorts through his intellectual baggage he's going to be effectively clueless on a subject like this.

 

So telling someone who's borderline anti-semitic (to be generous about it) that he's not anti-semitic because he prefers to play the Nazis in wargames is probably not a great idea in the grand scheme of things.  He'll probably feel relieved and never bother examining some of his other attitudes which are a lot less benign. 

 

And that is not a mitzvah.

How is this thread distasteful?

The only thing I see distasteful here  (actually quite disturbing) is your alarming overeagerness to label others as anti-semitic Nazis. It's very disgusting to see how much you will go out of your way to throw around such hateful insults without the slightest bit of evidence.

Originally Posted By Philippe (13 AUG 2012 12:45pm)

Perhaps we should just do away with this thread altogether.  It's borderline distasteful to begin with.

 

Chances are that if you have to ask the question you probably are, and not because you prefer to play the Axis. 

 

That has very little to do with it.

 

The culture at large supplies people with a whole plethora of anti-semtic attitudes, and until someone sorts through his intellectual baggage he's going to be effectively clueless on a subject like this.

 

So telling someone who's borderline anti-semitic (to be generous about it) that he's not anti-semitic because he prefers to play the Nazis in wargames is probably not a great idea in the grand scheme of things.  He'll probably feel relieved and never bother examining some of his other attitudes which are a lot less benign. 

 

And that is not a mitzvah.

Interesting theory...

Hey, I got branded a nazi sympathizer for suggesting the ethnic Germans

who were displaced in the "clean up" at the end of the war probably

weren't nazis.  It is all in the jaudiced eye of the beholder.  Personally I am

never really comfortable playing the WW2 Germans.  I am old enough to

remember when the names of uncles and cousins lost in that war would

stop conversations and lead to us children being hustled out of the room.

A quick change of subject would follow and questions were put off til "later".

I occasionally play the Germans in some Eastern Front games and North African

scenarios but never get the kind of visceral satisfaction I get from playing

the "Homies".  As for those who would argue that the nazis were like any others

I would have to suggest that they put an especially unique twist to the definition

of evil in a century that saw Mao and Stalin as well as Pol Pot etc.

I do believe the average German was fighting for his country like most others were.

In the same way I feel many chest pounding Americans would have made great nazis

if their parents or grandparents had not chosen to emigrate when they did.

Anyway that is just how I feel

i like to play the axis, i prefer to play the baddies in all different kind of games. but i can say i hate all things nazi past and present. and even if history is written by the winners there is no denying that germany, russia, china and japan delievered atrocities of the worst sort. and my grandfathers fighting for Hitler knew what was going on, they knew about the systematic killing of civilians. so i find not only the Nazi but also the Wehrmacht disgusting.

still like to play them

H

Originally Posted By mastercommander (13 AUG 2012 1:15pm)

Originally Posted By Philippe (13 AUG 2012 12:45pm)

Perhaps we should just do away with this thread altogether.  It's borderline distasteful to begin with.

 

Chances are that if you have to ask the question you probably are, and not because you prefer to play the Axis. 

 

That has very little to do with it.

 

The culture at large supplies people with a whole plethora of anti-semtic attitudes, and until someone sorts through his intellectual baggage he's going to be effectively clueless on a subject like this.

 

So telling someone who's borderline anti-semitic (to be generous about it) that he's not anti-semitic because he prefers to play the Nazis in wargames is probably not a great idea in the grand scheme of things.  He'll probably feel relieved and never bother examining some of his other attitudes which are a lot less benign. 

 

And that is not a mitzvah.

 

 

How is this thread distasteful?

 

The only thing I see distasteful here  (actually quite disturbing) is your alarming overeagerness to label others as anti-semitic Nazis. It's very disgusting to see how much you will go out of your way to throw around such hateful insults without the slightest bit of evidence.

 

However, are you not the person who started this thread asking everyone for opinions on whether you are anti semitic?

Originally Posted By Hartford688 (14 AUG 2012 10:49am)

H

Originally Posted By mastercommander (13 AUG 2012 1:15pm)

Originally Posted By Philippe (13 AUG 2012 12:45pm)

Perhaps we should just do away with this thread altogether.  It's borderline distasteful to begin with.

 

Chances are that if you have to ask the question you probably are, and not because you prefer to play the Axis. 

 

That has very little to do with it.

 

The culture at large supplies people with a whole plethora of anti-semtic attitudes, and until someone sorts through his intellectual baggage he's going to be effectively clueless on a subject like this.

 

So telling someone who's borderline anti-semitic (to be generous about it) that he's not anti-semitic because he prefers to play the Nazis in wargames is probably not a great idea in the grand scheme of things.  He'll probably feel relieved and never bother examining some of his other attitudes which are a lot less benign. 

 

And that is not a mitzvah.

 

 

How is this thread distasteful?

 

The only thing I see distasteful here  (actually quite disturbing) is your alarming overeagerness to label others as anti-semitic Nazis. It's very disgusting to see how much you will go out of your way to throw around such hateful insults without the slightest bit of evidence.

 

 

However, are you not the person who started this thread asking everyone for opinions on whether you are anti semitic?

yes, but I didn't say I wasn't going to post my opinions either.