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| 1 SEP 2003 at 1:56pm |
AA_CavScoutCenturion
Posts : 43
Joined: 13 MAY 2003
Status : Online | Here's some interesting reading on the 3" mortar:
[URL=http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/smortar.htm]http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/smortar.htm[/URL]
CC5 Training Center Admin
[url]www.cc5trainingcenter.com[/url]
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| 1 SEP 2003 at 2:58pm |
mikeMGO71Centurion
Posts : 143
Joined: 30 DEC 2003
Location: UK
Status : Online | Originally Posted By AA_CavScout
Here's some interesting reading on the 3" mortar:
[URL=http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/smortar.htm]http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/smortar.htm[/URL]
Thanks for that, v interesting read.
So, no doubt if a shell were to land directly on a half-track, it would probably destroy it... but the probability of a hit when out of visual range must still be v low...
But, perhaps troops in visual range can somehow pass on the information...
Loving GJS... but gutted that I lost both my Tigers to a single Firefly that survived a hit in the side and destroyed my Tigers at the front...
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| 2 SEP 2003 at 4:56am |
Moosehead1Centurion
Posts : 11
Joined: 24 JUL 2003
Status : Online | I think its been discussed a few times and I think the prevailing opinion was that mortars should be somewhat less effective versus all open-top vehicles in the next version of GJS. Mortar effectiveness seems about right versus AT guns now (it is **** hard to take out an AT gun anymore with the mortar), so it makes no sense why vehicles wouldn't have somewhere near the same vulnerability. At least that's the voices in my head are saying anyway.
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| 2 SEP 2003 at 10:04am |
mikeMGO71Centurion
Posts : 143
Joined: 30 DEC 2003
Location: UK
Status : Online |
Hmm, so when is next version of GJS...?
Also, perhaps that mod is reasonably straightforward... either all the top armour vals need changing, or mortar damage vals... but needs playtesting to find appropriate I guess...
Anyone make these changes, and know the values...?
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| 2 SEP 2003 at 1:20pm |
GDS StarfuryGeneral
Posts : 16394
Joined: 26 MAY 2001
Location: 0, Starbase 10
Status : Offline | since allied halftracks are open topped I see no reason why a mortor couldnt take 1 out. I have not seen a tank get killed by a mortor in a long time, and that was the main problem with cc5 mortors.
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| 2 SEP 2003 at 4:06pm |
Moosehead1Centurion
Posts : 11
Joined: 24 JUL 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By GDS_Starfury
since allied halftracks are open topped I see no reason why a mortor couldnt take 1 out. I have not seen a tank get killed by a mortor in a long time, and that was the main problem with cc5 mortors.
Well theoretically I agree, but after playing an entire campaign in GJS I have found that mortars vs open top vehicles is like shooting fish in a barrel. I don't think its very realistic to be able to count on mortars for gauranteed and automatic kills.
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| 2 SEP 2003 at 5:43pm |
ScottWallaceCenturion
Posts : 148
Joined: 19 SEP 2003
Location: UK
Status : Offline | Its Murphys`Law m8,i was on the recieving end of a Med Mortar taking out 2 of my Wolverine open top tanks once,did i mention the Germans done it with 5 shots?
I can only imagine the sheer horror of the poor Bastards inside those M10 Wolves when seeing a Mortar round pop in to say "Howdy fellas"
So basicly anything with an exposed top can and will be knocked out in one way or another.......Murphys`Law.........
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| 4 SEP 2003 at 4:56pm |
mikeMGO71Centurion
Posts : 143
Joined: 30 DEC 2003
Location: UK
Status : Online | Originally Posted By GDS_Starfury
since allied halftracks are open topped I see no reason why a mortor couldnt take 1 out. I have not seen a tank get killed by a mortor in a long time, and that was the main problem with cc5 mortors.
Sure, mortars should take any topless 1/2 track I guess, German or Allied, when it makes a direct hit into the top.
The actual problem appears to be that they score direct hits too frequently.
A direct hit on a running squad of 7 men in the open will if you are lucky kill 3 of them. And thats the worst position they could be in.
A hit on a 1/2 track (and 1/2 track graphic is large) generally blows it up or takes 2/3rd of it out, which is 4 men plus and a vehicle. I think the odds of a hit in the middle of a 1/2track are low, for a blind shot. Perhaps with verbal feedback you'd hit within 5-10 shots... but I've seen 3 shots cream a track, then the next 3 shots cream the next one... and it just doesn't seem right.
The only success I have with them is when I wait until last 5 mins of 20 min fight...
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| 4 SEP 2003 at 8:11pm |
Moosehead1Centurion
Posts : 11
Joined: 24 JUL 2003
Status : Online | Everything mike is saying is correct. Anyone who's played the germans for any length of time on a campaign knows vehicles are sitting ducks for mortars. It can get pretty pointless to deploy these much of the time. Not 30 minutes ago, I lost 5 vehicles to 2 blind Allied mortar teams in a single battle. It didn't take more than 3-5 rounds for each vehicle (they were within a few hundred meters), and one or 2 went down on the first hit. And no they were not bunched together. This happens all the time.
Like mike said, you pretty much have to wait until the last few minutes to make them visible, or if you control most of the map you can deploy them at a distance from the enemy's mortar teams. Even still, this makes them next to useless unless you're lucky enough to get to where the allied mortars are out of shells.
Although I love GJS, more than stock CC5, I'd love to see this adjusted so at least vehicles have somewhat of a chance.
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| 5 SEP 2003 at 5:25pm |
mikeMGO71Centurion
Posts : 143
Joined: 30 DEC 2003
Location: UK
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Moosehead1
Although I love GJS, more than stock CC5, I'd love to see this adjusted so at least vehicles have somewhat of a chance.
Ditto.
For stock CC5 (or Utah as I tend to call it), that too is great when using the stats from GJS (I manually copied these over), so the rules are basically the same between the campaigns.
For changing the 1/2 track problem... I had a quick look at top armour, wanted to see if AT guns had been changed to offset the mortar problem (btw, I read that AT guns were often taken out by accurate direct hits from mortars though).
But changing the armour would affect small arms fire directed at the track from tall buildings...
I think the best solution is
a. That mortar fire should be as accurate as it is now, WHEN Direct Fire (ie LOS to target) is used.
b. Indirect fire should be less accurate.
This would affect mortar effectiveness against all targets of course. Also it would mean that massed mortars against open-tops would be effective, but then why not.
Thoughts? I don't recall if it is a straight-forward change, but something along those lines should certainly be feasible.
Another annoying factor - I have yet to play a campaign (of any mod) that hasn't involved bug-fixes or game changes usually several times during the campaign, and usually to the benefit of one side of the other... giving me a good excuse for why I am mostly losing...
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| 5 SEP 2003 at 7:04pm |
Moosehead1Centurion
Posts : 11
Joined: 24 JUL 2003
Status : Online | I think the best solution is
a. That mortar fire should be as accurate as it is now, WHEN Direct Fire (ie LOS to target) is used.
b. Indirect fire should be less accurate.
I agree with this. You should post this in the [URL=http://www.closecombat.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=17]GJS forum[/URL]
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| 6 SEP 2003 at 1:15am |
CathartesCenturion
Posts : 314
Joined: 28 APR 2001
Status : Offline | increase open-topped armor values and then mortars become utterly useless against them--is this what you want?
mortar accuracy has already been decreased in GJS. much more and they become useless for most jobs.
Are your halftracks moving? or remaining still inviting a mortar salvo?
CC has its limitations, and the mortar team concept, except for direct fire, is relatively abstract in the manner wich we can so quickly assign coordinates, target, and rain shells.
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| 6 SEP 2003 at 2:31pm |
pt Centurion
Posts : 77
Joined: 25 APR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Cathartes
increase open-topped armor values and then mortars become utterly useless against them--is this what you want?
yes, after a while the only thing left for Jerry are HT's. IMO it would help a lot to make them survive more. In my experience HT's are used only in suicide (recon) or one time suprise role.
Cathartes, I need some tree shadows from you (if you have them) can you contact me at [email]pt11070@hotmail.com[/email]. I have few already but not the ones used on maps you and Atilla made.
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| 6 SEP 2003 at 9:08pm |
AtillaCenturion
Posts : 522
Joined: 10 MAY 2001
Status : Online | The Germans used halftracks for various purposes. Most notably recon, transport and support for infantry.
In the recon role they were used at divisional level. They were to seek out the enemy, and than stay in cover untill armor or infantry arrived to engage the enemy.
In the transport role they were used to carry infantry, so that the infantry could keep pace with the panzers. Usually the infantry would dismount prior to engagement.
In the support role, they would stay behind the infantry and engage enemy positions.
If you keep these things in mind, you might find proper use for halftracks. Personally I like to use them quite frequently. I tend to keep them well behind the infantry, and bring them up for fire-support when the infantry runs into trouble. They're very usefull in a role as mobile HMG or infantry gun. Whenever they get targeted by mortars, get them back into cover immediately. If you let them stay stationary, they won't survive. And they shouldn't IMO. They're not armor. Not even substitute-armor.
In short, halftracks are mobile HMG/Infantry guns. Not tanks, so don't use them like tanks.
[URL=http://www.militarygameronline.com/CloseCombatGJS]CC5: Gold Juno Sword[/URL]
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| 6 SEP 2003 at 9:32pm |
mikeMGO71Centurion
Posts : 143
Joined: 30 DEC 2003
Location: UK
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Cathartes
increase open-topped armor values and then mortars become utterly useless against them--is this what you want?
mortar accuracy has already been decreased in GJS. much more and they become useless for most jobs.
Are your halftracks moving? or remaining still inviting a mortar salvo?
CC has its limitations, and the mortar team concept, except for direct fire, is relatively abstract in the manner wich we can so quickly assign coordinates, target, and rain shells.
Well, hopefully a reasonable balance can be struck Cathartes?
I agree armour probably should not be increased, because of the impact on small arms fire. Or if it is increased, it should only be so much so that mortars can still kill.
But are there other options?
Perhaps increasing the delay between selecting a fire point and the mortar fire would be better... and maybe delay between launch and impact. That would give moving tracks more of a chance.
Moving or not, 1/2tracks are pretty slow on most terrain, and a single mortar destroys any of them in very few shots, as the various testimonies seem to indicate.
Btw, just to be sure, we all really appreciate the GJS mod, and so you know I rarely ever play any other computer game and thoroughly enjoy the mod as the most interesting and challenging game I can choose to play! And I've said before I'd happily contribute funds to the authors, and sponsor other mods.
So, sorry if it sounds like moaning over a minor point!
And perhaps it is something that has been looked at in detail by you guys and worked on, and maybe cannot be improved. If thats the case, then fair enough.
Right... time to defend Pegasus Bridge...
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| 6 SEP 2003 at 9:39pm |
mikeMGO71Centurion
Posts : 143
Joined: 30 DEC 2003
Location: UK
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Atilla
If you keep these things in mind, you might find proper use for halftracks. Personally I like to use them quite frequently. I tend to keep them well behind the infantry, and bring them up for fire-support when the infantry runs into trouble. They're very usefull in a role as mobile HMG or infantry gun. Whenever they get targeted by mortars, get them back into cover immediately. If you let them stay stationary, they won't survive. And they shouldn't IMO. They're not armor. Not even substitute-armor.
Agreed completely, and thats how I always use them, and to great effect in heavily built-up areas (like the Bayeaux/Carentan map)... but even in fire-support at range, I still do find it surprising that a mortar firing indirect can reliable hit (and destroy) an HT with say 3 shots...
And usually, there is no cover from mortars... and 3 shots happens v quickly...
But, perhaps that is historically accurate (I do not know), and perhaps I simply should not use them when there is a chance of mortar hit...
Is it possibly to reduce the accuracy of mortars when firing without LOS to target? Is that the base accuracy factor anyway (using QClone to edit tables)...?
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| 7 SEP 2003 at 12:42am |
Moosehead1Centurion
Posts : 11
Joined: 24 JUL 2003
Status : Online | Atilla you're right, this is the only effective way to use them in my experience. Keep them on the move and in and out of cover. Although if, as most players I know say, the halftrack can't survive beyond 3-5 shells, this leaves little to no time to escape to cover once spotted.
I suppose it's entirely possible Atilla that your tactics and skill are much superior to the average player, so that you avoid the mortar menace. It's just that I have used every method/tactic/technique I can think of over 27 days of a GJS campaign, and I still can't get much use out of the halftrack.
I don't understand how to manipulate the data, so I don't know if its possible, but I would hope that halftracks could be made to survive, on the average, beyond the first 3-5 shells lobbed at them with indirect/blind fire. Can we make it somewhere in the range of 9-12?
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