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| 2 NOV 2003 at 12:38am |
mooxeCenturion
Posts : 115
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Location: CA
Status : Offline | You have to take into account a few things........
The gun camera vibrates as the .50s are shooting. Which could make the tracers in the video seem like thet are going everywhere.
Also,
They may have 1 tracer every 5th round on the belt. So for every tracer you see, theres 4 bullets before it. Plus .50 cal comes in AP.
I have read of accounts about sustained .50cal fire from fighters knocking out tanks. Remember, they are firing on the second weakest point on the tank, the top armour. In the video he was describing how they'd richochet rounds off the ground into the thinnest armour on the tank, the under belly.
Its possible, very very possible.
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| 2 NOV 2003 at 1:11pm |
Santa ClausCenturion
Posts : 250
Joined: 22 DEC 2001
Status : Online | Learned a long time ago the videos aren't to be taken as perfect history lessons. Too often those videos just repeat old myths.
The guy talking in that one says how Tigers didn't have as good armour below as they did have in sides and top. BS. Of course the sides are thicker, but Tigers roof armour is 26mm thick and its floor armour is also 26mm thick. So they are same. Then why go through the trouble of bouncing to the bottom when there is equally thin armour straight in your sight on top of the tank? :confused:
The guy also says: "They all carried - or most of them carried- a fuel tank behind them, in a trailer." Stretching a bit? I don't know about what kind of vehicles he was shooting if they all had fuel trailers. Not one of the hundreds of Tiger pictures I've seen has had fuel trailers. I'm not saying there NEVER was trailers, but "They all carried - or most of them carried" sounds like something else than Tigers.
[img]http://www.santapark.com/eng/joulupukki.jpg[/img]
Behave nicely!
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| 2 NOV 2003 at 5:32pm |
Nomada_FirefoxCommander
Posts : 1537
Joined: 28 MAY 2001
Status : Online | Interesting but on CC4 or CC5 a 0.50mg can not destroy a tank. We should try to do it more powerful.
"Yo no soy el unico Nomada, y no me llamo Nomada."
[link=http://www.clannomada.com/]Clan Nomada Web Site[/link]
[link=http://www.firefoxccmods.com]FirefoxCCMods Web Site
[/link]
"Sorry by my English".
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| 2 NOV 2003 at 6:07pm |
LozCenturion
Posts : 152
Joined: 4 MAY 2001
Status : Online | :rolleyes:
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| 2 NOV 2003 at 11:31pm |
pt Centurion
Posts : 77
Joined: 25 APR 2007
Location: 0
Status : Online | There we go again...
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| 3 NOV 2003 at 2:36am |
Euro-DoggieCommander
Posts : 1211
Joined: 29 JAN 2002
Status : Online | Yeah, those Army Air Corps pilots don't know what they're talking about. :rolleyes:
They need to go to college in Belgium or someplace and get a clue.
The bullets aint "all over the place". Those are richochets or the chemical compound in the tracers breaking loose. For every tracer you see there are at least five armor piercing rounds. Not all of the eight guns were necessarily loaded with tracer. It tends to foul the barrels and only a couple of the eight guns need to be loaded with tracer rounds to achieve visual tracking.
Why can't Americans learn to live in peace like us?
[IMG]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:ZK9zI_9NDIAC:www.greenpeacecanada.org/e/news/images/010716d.JPG[/IMG]
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| 3 NOV 2003 at 6:52am |
Santa ClausCenturion
Posts : 250
Joined: 22 DEC 2001
Status : Online | If that clip is supposed to be the “great proof” we’ve been waiting for half a year, then it’s utterly disappointing anti-climax.
I guess you don’t bother with facts like WHAT’S THE POINT in bouncing bullets to the Tigers 26mm thick belly when there’s equally “thin” 26mm armour plates on the hull roof right there in pilots line of sight? Maybe the rounds GAIN piercing power after first hitting the ground? :rolleyes: Yep, that must be it. First the bullet don't have enough bite to sink to the ground, instead it helplessly bounces off. But then suddenly 26mm armour plate isn't even hindrance for the magic bullet which happily pierces it. :rolleyes:
[img]http://www.santapark.com/eng/joulupukki.jpg[/img]
Behave nicely!
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| 3 NOV 2003 at 10:50am |
combotCenturion
Posts : 467
Joined: 28 JAN 2009
Location: 0
Status : Online | Elsewhere in the video the pilot says he used to squeeze the trigger for two or three seconds as he wanted to keep ammo for when/if german fighters appeared.
How many .50's is that coming from eight guns?
errr..200 rounds hitting infront of ...to the side of .... oops that one hit... then to the rear of the panzer.
So what.... maybe 50 on target?
What sort of damage would that do to 26mm of Krupp steel?
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| 3 NOV 2003 at 11:28am |
Santa ClausCenturion
Posts : 250
Joined: 22 DEC 2001
Status : Online | [B]Quote: What sort of damage would that do to 26mm of Krupp steel?[/B]
That’s exactly what ruins the bouncing bullet theory. Wasn’t it the official penetration charts that gave for the 0.50cal Browning max. penetration of 24mm at 100 meters from exactly perpendicular angle to the steel plate, no angle involved. And now we should believe it suddenly penetrates 26mm when shot from how long distance, AFTER hitting the ground, coming at angle, the round for sure twisting and turning after the bounce. I’m sorry, nice story but that just is too much of sci-fi. Doesn't matter how many strikes you get especially as they aren't hitting the exact same spot anyways.
[img]http://www.santapark.com/eng/joulupukki.jpg[/img]
Behave nicely!
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| 3 NOV 2003 at 7:00pm |
mikeMGO71Centurion
Posts : 143
Joined: 30 DEC 2003
Location: UK
Status : Online | He says Tigers at the beginning of the clip, and attacking fuel trailers, which could easily have happened behind enemy lines (but again how frequent is certainly debatable).
As for bouncing... I heard the argument used for British tanks firing their weak main armament and trying to bounce it (again, a myth?) under German tanks, but the .50 cal against a Tiger sounds way too implausible for all of the arguments already given.
I can't help but suspect that the voice-over was not a veteran but someone speaking on behalf of a veteran... just the way of talking gives me that impression.
I think the descriptions given apply to armoured cars and half-tracks and the like, and perhaps light tanks. From the air, at speed, under fire, any 'tank' is going to look like a Tiger perhaps. And the way the targets ignite in that video clip (the second one?) it doesn't seem like a Tiger (I couldn't get a good look at it).
And lets not forget that kill claims have been shown to be massively exaggerated.
Either way I hope people aren't suggesting that CC should be modified to let .50 cal MGs take on heavy tanks. There are enough bugs as it is without allowing that kind of thing to happen..!
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| 3 NOV 2003 at 11:01pm |
combotCenturion
Posts : 467
Joined: 28 JAN 2009
Location: 0
Status : Online | What about this one;
[URL=http://members.ozemail.com.au/~housewil/chockos/napalm.avi]Killing Panzers[/URL]
that's gotta get a run... surely?
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| 4 NOV 2003 at 4:04pm |
Santa ClausCenturion
Posts : 250
Joined: 22 DEC 2001
Status : Online | Ouch! I have no trouble with sauna once in a week, but that napalm looks like it might cause too much sweat for my liking.
[img]http://www.santapark.com/eng/joulupukki.jpg[/img]
Behave nicely!
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 5:49am |
stienerCenturion
Posts : 510
Joined: 10 SEP 2002
Status : Online | LOL.........
i have never seen any pics or read about any german tks towing fuel trailers behind them.if it was common practice there would be some photo evidence or some reference to it in some of the publications that have come out in the last 50 years. what a crock!
i have read in max hastings ,overlord, of the allied tankers trying to bounce a round off the top of the drivers compartment and under the gun mantel to destroy a tiger.
that also sounds like a 1 in a million shot at 1000 yds or more!!! most allied tankers were peeing in there pants and thinking of an excuse to advance to the rear when they were ingaged by a tiger tk.
remember that every german tk in normandy was a TIGER!
i believe that most german tks put out of commision [not nessecarily destroyed ....not every and infact few tanks blew to pieces] by allied air were from rockets or bombs not 50. cal. mgs.
most german tks put out of commision were fixed again....michael reynolds ,men of steel, makes a point of stating that.
hence the fact that the german armoured div's were always able to go on the offensive after sustaining heavy losses in equipment a few days earlier. most of it was fixed.
my 2 cents
"Only the spirit of attack,born in a brave heart,will over come the odds"
Stiener is a veteran of many botched GSJ landings. LOL!
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 8:56am |
MarcksCommander
Posts : 1031
Joined: 28 APR 2001
Status : Online | Havn´t we all learned a couple of lessons from various WW2 accounts of the Westfront ?
a. All german tanks are Tigers
b. All german artillery is 88
c. All german infantrymen are W-SS or Fallschirmjäger
[img]http://www.hometrail.de/ticking.gif[/img] The only lessons that you learn are from things that you regret ...
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 9:09am |
MarcksCommander
Posts : 1031
Joined: 28 APR 2001
Status : Online | Fuel trailers in use:
Sd.Ah. Tankanhänger (for Pz. I / II / III and Pz. IV series)
Those were basically reinforced two wheeled frames that loaded a standard fuel barrel.
I don´t know if they were in use for the heavies.
[img]http://www.hometrail.de/ticking.gif[/img] The only lessons that you learn are from things that you regret ...
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 10:24am |
combotCenturion
Posts : 467
Joined: 28 JAN 2009
Location: 0
Status : Online | I've seen those
A 44 gallon drum on two wheels...now where?
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 11:18am |
MarcksCommander
Posts : 1031
Joined: 28 APR 2001
Status : Online | Originally Posted By schrecken
I've seen those
A 44 gallon drum on two wheels...now where?
Yeah same here, I know I have pictures of them somwhere, LOL
[img]http://www.hometrail.de/ticking.gif[/img] The only lessons that you learn are from things that you regret ...
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 10:20pm |
stienerCenturion
Posts : 510
Joined: 10 SEP 2002
Status : Online | good to hear from you mr marcks!
you've been busy i guess.....or i have been at the wrong forums
have you played any GSJ? what do you think?
i'd love to see a pic of the fuel trailers? i guess maybe its not too far fetched??
i am lead to believe that the germans and allies too used tk transporters to haul there armour over long distances. although i am sure for the germans the shortage of transporters was a problem near the end of the war. hence there love of the railroads.
"Only the spirit of attack,born in a brave heart,will over come the odds"
Stiener is a veteran of many botched GSJ landings. LOL!
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 10:28pm |
combotCenturion
Posts : 467
Joined: 28 JAN 2009
Location: 0
Status : Online | this is yhe image I had in mind
But it's captioned nebelwerfer
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| 6 NOV 2003 at 11:15pm |
stienerCenturion
Posts : 510
Joined: 10 SEP 2002
Status : Online | my guess is they are nebelwerfers.......there numberd too.not sure i would take the time to number my fuel barrels.....
"Only the spirit of attack,born in a brave heart,will over come the odds"
Stiener is a veteran of many botched GSJ landings. LOL!
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| 7 NOV 2003 at 1:18am |
kwpCenturion
Posts : 353
Joined: 13 SEP 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By stiener
LOL.........
i have never seen any pics or read about any german tks towing fuel trailers behind them.if it was common practice there would be some photo evidence or some reference to it in some of the publications that have come out in the last 50 years. what a crock!
If you would like to see one give me your email and I'll scan a copy for you.
I have a picture of a couple of German tanks pulling two-wheeled gasoline trailers behind them, although I do have to admit that it is from the eastern front and not from the western. It's from "Armor on the Eastern front" by Walter J. Spielberger and Uwe Feist. It was published in 1968 by Aero Publishers, Inc.
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| 7 NOV 2003 at 1:34am |
stienerCenturion
Posts : 510
Joined: 10 SEP 2002
Status : Online | post it here too.........we would all like to see it!
[email]mmacklam@dccnet.com[/email]
"Only the spirit of attack,born in a brave heart,will over come the odds"
Stiener is a veteran of many botched GSJ landings. LOL!
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| 7 NOV 2003 at 2:21am |
kwpCenturion
Posts : 353
Joined: 13 SEP 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | 1st time at posting a pic here so i hope it works.....
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| 7 NOV 2003 at 12:15pm |
MarcksCommander
Posts : 1031
Joined: 28 APR 2001
Status : Online | Originally Posted By stiener
my guess is they are nebelwerfers
:eek: come on ....
That image actually shows the "Sd.Ah. Tankanhänger"
[img]http://www.hometrail.de/ticking.gif[/img] The only lessons that you learn are from things that you regret ...
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