Another reason to stay out of the ICC

I know the article talks about the European court, but avoiding judicial entanglements with, or sovereignty submissions to Europe is best.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20091103/wl_csm/ocrucefix
 

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

 Im all for the ruling. Public schools are not the place for religous symbols. Keep your Cross, Star of David, crescent moon, jedi, and anything else that says an invisible man is all powerful, out of the schools.
 

 
 

bboyer66


 Im all for the ruling. Public schools are not the place for religous symbols. Keep your Cross, Star of David, crescent moon, jedi, and anything else that says an invisible man is all powerful, out of the schools.
 

I'm against any ruling that goes against the grain of a country's culture imposed by outsiders.

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

 
Like regime change, for example?
 
Religion should not be forced on individuals in circumstances where they have no choice. A state school is such an environment. Freedom from superstition is a basic human right.
 
I note its only Italian conservatives who are complaining, and their agenda is obviously to force some cult on all children in state schools, in blatant disregard of the rights of free-thinking folk.
 
The ICC is right, and any country that cares for justice would have acceded to it by now.
 

the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion -- United States Senate, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

Folks, you're missing Jack's point ... reverse the language, and imagine a European court MANDATING the display of a symbol you disagree with or a social practice that you take issue with.
 
Move past the micro and toward the macro - this is a European Court dictating the day-to-day workings within a sovereign nation.
 
I give Jack grief by the ton ... but he's got this one right as rain.  This is dangerous as hell ... and the USA needs to stay as far away from this as possible. 
 
I miss the good old days, when you actually had to conquer a country to issue these kind of dictates.

Like regime change, for example?

I knew there'd be one ... without force of arms; by blood.  Again, if Italy wants to remove crucifixes, so be it.  This should be a wake up call; I don't want any European bureaucratic body telling the U.S. what's what!  If you want to take away a country's sovereignty, do it the old fashion way; that's how we roll.

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

reverse the language, and imagine a European court MANDATING the display of a symbol you disagree with or a social practice that you take issue with.

I'm not at all sure one follows the other. We are talking subtraction here, not multiplication;^)

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I'm not at all sure one follows the other. We are talking subtraction here, not multiplication;^)

 
Fine Lance ... imagine the ICC dictating minimum sentencing guidelines for possession of the Sticky Green.  Would that be a violation of sovereignty that you would support ?
 
Everybody seems to like a Dictator nowadays ... as long as it's Dictator they agree with.

 I see what you mean Harley, but the Italians did agree to join the European Union where non sovereign courts can make laws.
On a higher level, is it not the eventual goal of mankind to have no nations, and to just be a world of Earth citizens? Do you not believe that nationalism will eventually go the way of feudalism? Is globalism a bad thing? If it is, why?

 
 

Do you want a guy in Zimbabwe to have an equal say regarding zoning policy in Pittsburgh ?

Huh, that's two bad calls by the Italians, then. The most recent one for joining the European Court, which let the camel's nose under the tent on their sovereignty. But the first one for letting those darn Christians bring in their foreign ways from the Mideast to begin with, by Jove.

bboyer66


 I see what you mean Harley, but the Italians did agree to join the European Union where non sovereign courts can make laws.

Honestly, I think bboyer has hit upon the key point:  In becoming a part of the EU, the Italians voluntarily subserviated themselves to this.  No one put a gun to their heads and forced them do so. 

"Mr. Garak, why is it that no one has tried to kill you yet?"

"My innate charm?"

I see what you mean Harley, but the Italians did agree to join the European Union where non sovereign courts can make laws.

Bingo

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Honestly, I think bboyer has hit upon the key point: In becoming a part of the EU, the Italians voluntarily subserviated themselves to this. No one put a gun to their heads and forced them do so.

 
I don't think it went down that way.  The EU with its associated bureaucracies was of an evolutionary path; one motivated by threat of the Soviet Union.  With each step towards more integration there was a loss of future sovereignty that few Europeans knew was coming.  Basically, it was stolen well before they knew what was happening.
 

On a higher level, is it not the eventual goal of mankind to have no nations, and to just be a world of Earth citizens? Do you not believe that nationalism will eventually go the way of feudalism?

No! Nor would I wish the required bloodshed for such a thing on anyone.

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

bboyer66


but the Italians did agree to join the European Union where non sovereign courts can make laws.

Not exactly, but then again, yes partly.

The Italians choosed (read elected) the common market back in the days. Since then, the common market has evolved to a federal union. The Italian people, like most europeans, never had a chance to say no to that.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
-Sir Winston Churchill-

The EU with its associated bureaucracies was of an evolutionary path; one motivated by threat of the Soviet Union. 

 
...except that the European Union wasn't created until 1992 (Treaty of Maastricht signed)/1993 (EU officially created) and the Soviet Union imploded in 1991. There was no EU during the Cold War.
 
I also wonder what this has to do with the ICC. I remember Bush proclaiming he would land troops on the beaches of Scheveningen, a name which he of course couldn't pronounce right, if an American would be jailed there. Of course, at the same time the US was holding people without any form of trial in Guantanamo.
 
Other countries/semi-independent regions, such as Flanders, have also recently prohibited students/schools from wearing/displaying religious symbols.
 
Personally, I don't see any reason why a secular country would need religious symbols in public places except for religious institutions/buildings. I'm in favour of removing every cross from Dutch classrooms, although that isn't going to happen with the current government. 

the part with taking away sovereignity could be seen differently: switzerland isn't part of the european union. but it sure has to adopt all the laws, the school reforms etc... to stay synchronised with all the european norms. on the other hand we do not have a say in the european parliaments.

but germany is allowed to have a say how our airport is used, what our banks should do... 

of course no pole or kraut has a say in zürich zoning. but then again, no pole has a say in zoning laws in regensburg....

i do think and i heard it here again and again that european countries cooperate for the economie's and peace sake but they are still very independent.

Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation.
Henry Kissinger

HarleyRider


Do you want a guy in Zimbabwe to have an equal say regarding zoning policy in Pittsburgh ?

  Sometimes I believe someone in Zimbabwe is making local decisions.

 
 

bboyer66
  I see what you mean Harley, but the Italians did agree to join the European Union where non sovereign courts can make laws.

The  European Court of Human Rights is not an EU court.
 
It's an internation court with 47 members (all the members states of the Council Of Europe).

bboyer66
 On a higher level, is it not the eventual goal of mankind to have no nations, and to just be a world of Earth citizens?

Dear God, no. What a horrible idea.
 
My nation has the right to self-determination.
 
No one has the "Right" to impose their laws and rules on us (except if it's the democratic will of the people).

bboyer66
 Do you not believe that nationalism will eventually go the way of feudalism? Is globalism a bad thing? If it is, why?

No, Nationalism will not dissappear. The number of states is increasing, not decreasing, and others are still demanding their right to self-determination, from the Basques to Scotland to the Kurds.
 
Sure, sometimes it seems to be dead, like in the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, UK, Czechoslovakia...but it's not. It's just bidding its time...
 
Globalisation is many things. The part of globalisation which is a bad thing is that if you travel around Europe, everywhere is becoming the same, the same shops, the same food, the same music, the same same same...horrid sameness in the name of "diversity"...

ActionJack

bboyer66


 Im all for the ruling. Public schools are not the place for religous symbols. Keep your Cross, Star of David, crescent moon, jedi, and anything else that says an invisible man is all powerful, out of the schools.
 

I'm against any ruling that goes against the grain of a country's culture imposed by outsiders.

Who is the outsider? In the context of EU the European Court is not an outsider. It is like saying that the Supreme Court in DC is an outsider to make a judgment ordering a public school in Arizona to take down a cross. Few states: UK, Poland, Czech republic negotiated an opt-out from certain EU rules. Italy did not so what is happening is entirely legal in the context of European law.
 
There are valid reasons for staying out of ICC, but I'm afraid this ain't it.
 
BTW, I fully agree with the ruling. Religious symbols have no place in public schools, no matter how long they were tolerated. Ultimately religion in on its way out so get used to it getting repeatedly kicked about.

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