Ju-87 Stuka Naval Variants

Ok so in trying to take my mind off current events I turned on the Military Channel this morning after chores and caught a little bit of Wings of the Luftwaffe. This episode was centered on the Stuka, a plane I have always admired.

There was a lot of discussion on the Stuka's naval actions, almost totally in the East. As a matter of fact there was a short story told of one Stuka ace who actually sank (helped sink?) a Russian battleship!

So I m posting here to ask for books or websites (but mostly books) that tell the story of the Stuka's naval record. This is a story not often told here in the West, to the best of my knowledge. Sounds like really fascinating stuff so any suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, all.

Just remember kids, when you need something wholesome and innocent like Sesame Street twisted into something sick and perverted - I'm just a phone call away.

-HR

you might want to swing by www.RZM.com but I warn you, have your wife hold your credit card while browsing.

^Trying the link now...(The Wife is out)

EDIT: Oh my effing God

Just remember kids, when you need something wholesome and innocent like Sesame Street twisted into something sick and perverted - I'm just a phone call away.

-HR

oh yeah, you should find what your looking for there.  I saw a number of books about Stukas.  but Im not telling you where they are, Ill let you enjoy digging around on your own.

oh and Ive ordered quite a bit from them, a nice chunk of their Kursk books, pretty timely delivery and no problems.

come to think of it.......  why doesnt someone get them to advertise here?  seems like a natural thing to me.

Their search function doesn't work for me right now...goddammit

I'll get LBs attention on possible ads from these guys.

Just remember kids, when you need something wholesome and innocent like Sesame Street twisted into something sick and perverted - I'm just a phone call away.

-HR

it just worked for me.  I typed in Stuka and also tried Ju-87.  however the list that comes up isnt complete.  if I were you I would go through each publishers complete listing :)
oh FYI for everyone, if you got the money grab that Hells Gate book its frikin good!  I think this is the 3rd or 4th printing theyve gone through.

I'm using Firefox...maybe that's the problem?

Just remember kids, when you need something wholesome and innocent like Sesame Street twisted into something sick and perverted - I'm just a phone call away.

-HR

Well, to speed up your search, the pilot was Hans Rudel, the book is Stuka Pilot, and the battleship was the Marat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Thanks for the link to RZM, GDS - I can see I'll be digging around in there for awhile!

Great site Star

Great site.

I'll knock on their door come Monday to see if they're interested in advertising.

Gus, IIRC there is a trilogy of books on the Stuka published by Osprey.  I know I have at least one here someplace, but am not sure about the others. I remember leafing through it but don't recall mention of naval use of Stukas.  That is probably because it's the wrong volume, but I may have missed something.  I'll see if I can find it and let you know if it has anything that might be of interest on the topic.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.     - Albert Einstein

Found it on Amazon. 

This is a comprehensive look at Stukas across the Eastern Front, however on page 16 there is a discussion of an attack on a battleship. 

Gus the book is yours if you want it.  I'd love a quick review for the front page if you have the time.  But let me know either way.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.     - Albert Einstein

Stukas were to be used on the KM's CVs, Graf Zeppelin and Peter Stroesser (name speculated) had
they ever been completed. The Ju 87's would have had jetsonable landing gear in case of water landings.

EDIT:
I've often wondered what would have happened had the KM adopted the idea of building
a number of CVE's or CVL's instead of focusing (weakly) on just full size flattops. In the NA
the smaller carriers would have been more effective in large numbers in the same way that
the smaller commerce raiders with their puny guns hurt the Allies in ways that put the big
gun ships such as Bismark and the S/G BC twins to shame. In the Med a number of baby
flats could have kept a protective air cover over Rommel's supply line as well as keeping
Malta's fighters occupied with actual air superiority contenders such as the Me109T (naval
E variant) instead of just Flying Pencils and the Regina A. I understand that the KM would
never have been able to dominate either sea but a few less British capital ships here or a few
battered arctic convoys more there could have affected the Eastern Front (less Lend-lease
trucks, etc) and a few million more litres of petrol for The Desert Fox's panzers making it's
way across the RAF gauntlet might have lead to a different outcome west of Alexandria...

(Sorry to sidetrack the thread)

   May be inappropriate for serious moviegoers...

The Ju 87 C, the version which was supposed to be placed on carriers, was produced in limited numbers, with estimates placed at around 120.
 
Gusington, I can recommend Manfred Griehl's books. RZM's a great site, but you do have to doublecheck if the book you're going to purchase is a reference for modellers or a real book about a certain piece of equipment/vehicle.
 
Staggerwing: How would the Germans get a carrier to a base in Italy? The Italians, with some German help and a more sensible war plan, could easily have taken Malta, but they didn't.
 
Carriers for the Atlantic would be a good idea, but the Graf Zeppelin would only be able to carry about 40 planes, so many carriers would be needed. The design itself was pretty sturdy and could take a beating, but the Germans would need to design a new carrier if they wanted a true fleet carrier instead of what came down to an escort carrier.
 
The Me 109 T would also have to be replaced as soon as the Brits would get their hands on their Wildcat, the Martlet. The Me 155 (later BV 155), one of the many German planes in the "good design, never produced" category would need to enter service before 1943 at the latest. Of course, the Me 109 T would already be outdated by then, so perhaps a new variant would've been developed.

Thanks ComradeP, John_in_VA and Staggerwing, great stuff.

LB sorry I didn't see your post when you originally put it up. I'll gladly take whatever you can get on the Stuka, if the offer still stands.

It's still weird for me to think of sea-based Stukas...I suppose its a more 'War in the East' phenomena. Would love to learn more and do a book review on it.

Just remember kids, when you need something wholesome and innocent like Sesame Street twisted into something sick and perverted - I'm just a phone call away.

-HR

John_in_VA


Well, to speed up your search, the pilot was Hans Rudel, the book is Stuka Pilot, and the battleship was the Marat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Thanks for the link to RZM, GDS - I can see I'll be digging around in there for awhile!

Wow, this guy was an air force.

Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions and successfully attacked many tanks, trains, ships, and other ground targets, claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed - including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery guns, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship, 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down[1].[2]

ComradeP


  Staggerwing: How would the Germans get a carrier to a base in Italy? The Italians, with some German help and a more sensible war plan, could easily have taken Malta, but they didn't.

  Getting past Gibralter would be very tough, true, but if Germany was farsighted enough to
build a number of CVEs perhaps they would have started before the war and kept some in
Italian ports as IIRC was done with destroyers.
 

The Me 109 T would also have to be replaced as soon as the Brits would get their hands on their Wildcat, the Martlet. The Me 155 (later BV 155), one of the many German planes in the "good design, never produced" category would need to enter service before 1943 at the latest. Of course, the Me 109 T would already be outdated by then, so perhaps a new variant would've been developed.

The 109 and Martlet would have been a fair matchup with the 109 having a slight performance
edge and the Martlet (if equipped with self-sealing tanks) being tougher. I'd have to give the
armament edge to the Martlet as it had four .50 cal mgs (some had 6) to counter the 109's
two 7.62 mg and one 20mm cannon. Much of the time though the 109s would be facing inferior
 aircraft such as Rocs and Skuas, Fulmars, and, over Malta, Gladiators.

   May be inappropriate for serious moviegoers...

Gusington
 
LB sorry I didn't see your post when you originally put it up. I'll gladly take whatever you can get on the Stuka, if the offer still stands.

It's still weird for me to think of sea-based Stukas...I suppose its a more 'War in the East' phenomena. Would love to learn more and do a book review on it.

Offer still stands.  I've gotta mail something off tomorrow anyway, so let me dig around here.  It should be on top of a pile of books as it wasn't so long ago that I went hunting for it. :)

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.     - Albert Einstein

Getting past Gibralter would be very tough, true, but if Germany was farsighted enough to build a number of CVEs perhaps they would have started before the war and kept some in Italian ports as IIRC was done with destroyers.

 
Well, if they were farsighted enough, part of Legion Condor and some Italians could stay in southern Spain to "aid in the reconstruction of the Spanish Army" or the like on paper, whilst actually preparing to take Gibraltar right at the start of the war. That should have given the Admiralty a major headache to begin with.
 

 The 109 and Martlet would have been a fair matchup with the 109 having a slight performance
edge and the Martlet (if equipped with self-sealing tanks) being tougher. I'd have to give the
armament edge to the Martlet as it had four .50 cal mgs (some had 6) to counter the 109's
two 7.62 mg and one 20mm cannon. Much of the time though the 109s would be facing inferior
 aircraft such as Rocs and Skuas, Fulmars, and, over Malta, Gladiators.

 
I was thinking more in terms of numbers: the Graf Zeppelin was supposed to carry around a dozen Bf 109 T's. The Brits had 7 carriers around, and the "real" carriers (Ark Royal, Illustrious) could carry more aircraft than the Graf Zeppelin.
 
Those 10 Bf 109 T's would've been fine against Gladiators, a Sea Hurricane or two, and the Skuas, Fulmars and perhaps the occasional Albacore, but against more than their number of Martlets, they would be in some trouble. The Germans would need to keep an edge in aircraft technology on their carriers, as they were not going to get an edge in carrier design.
 
Oh, and they would need to get a credible torpedo bomber. The Fi 167 makes the Swordfish look like the greatest torpedo bomber ever. Yes, it could land virtually vertically, but that would make it ideal for recon and light duties, not for torpedo bombing.
 
The more modern ships of Regia Marina were more or less the only part of the Italian armed forces that were a credible force and not pure excrement in a 1 vs 1 engagement. I would not want to be on Malta when 3 (actually completed) to 6 (including all projected ones, this is alternative history after all) Littorio/Vittorio Veneto class BB's park next door. Their gunnery wasn't spectacular due to the quality and weight of the ammunition, but hitting an island isn't difficult.