Words fail me

phredd1


You know, when I read articles like this, I can't help but feel that waterboarding is small potatoes compared to stoning someone to death. Yet there are millions screaming about the evil of waterboarding, and very few about this.  Go figure. YMMV.

For the record, I stand full-square against stoning.  To the best of my memory, I've never been asked to condone the practice.
Waterboarding, however, was done in my name by people who were working to preserve my security and advance my interests.  If I don't object to the waterboarding, than I carry the stain.  I might as well have done it myself.
 
Those aren't small potatoes to me, Jack.

Waterboarding, however, was done in my name by people who were working to preserve my security and advance my interests. If I don't object to the waterboarding, than I carry the stain. I might as well have done it myself.

You are emotionalizing here.  Waterboarding is indeed an uncomfortable experience but we do it regularly to our own in the training of troops.  Another uncomfortable experience is pepper spray to the face.  We do that to any troop who is authorized to use it.  We also punish those who go beyond what's authorized regardless of intentions.  You stand comfortably behind the shield that others raise in your defense; show some appreciation.
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"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way." FEW GOOD MEN

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

 
 
I stand uncomfortably behind the shield that others raise in my defense, and not quite as tall as I used to. 
 
While you are heroically protecting us helpless and hapless citizens from being terrorized in our comfortable beds, don't lose sight of the fact that the military is also tasked with protecting us from having to condone torture.  However the damn term may be defined.
 
I think you missed the entire point that the movie "A Few Good Men" was trying to get across.
 
 
 
 

While you are heroically protecting us helpless and hapless citizens from being terrorized in our comfortable beds, don't lose sight of the fact that the military is also tasked with protecting us from having to condone torture. However the damn term may be defined.

 
I'm retired; so I stand gratefully behind that shield and its bearer, and I give those who bear that shield the benefit of the doubt; I also will forgive them much!  As to the movie, I understood quite well the point of men exceeding their authority; of the ends justifying the means.  But those who conducted authorized interrogations using authorized methods, which can only be considered quite humane since we subject our own troops to that same experience, do not deserve scorn from the protected.  So in this case Jack Nicholson's soliloquy is on point.  Just say 'thank you' and be on your way.

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

Is everyone forgetting good old Jack was arguing with a scientologist who thinks Vulcor the Evil Alien warlord is responsable for your problems?

ActionJack

Waterboarding, however, was done in my name by people who were working to preserve my security and advance my interests. If I don't object to the waterboarding, than I carry the stain. I might as well have done it myself.

You are emotionalizing here.  Waterboarding is indeed an uncomfortable experience but we do it regularly to our own in the training of troops.  Another uncomfortable experience is pepper spray to the face.  We do that to any troop who is authorized to use it.  We also punish those who go beyond what's authorized regardless of intentions.  You stand comfortably behind the shield that others raise in your defense; show some appreciation.
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"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way." FEW GOOD MEN

ActionJack, you said it perfectly! Great post!

Yes I am a pirate, 200 years too late.......

ActionJack

While you are heroically protecting us helpless and hapless citizens from being terrorized in our comfortable beds, don't lose sight of the fact that the military is also tasked with protecting us from having to condone torture. However the damn term may be defined.

 
I'm retired; so I stand gratefully behind that shield and its bearer, and I give those who bear that shield the benefit of the doubt; I also will forgive them much!  As to the movie, I understood quite well the point of men exceeding their authority; of the ends justifying the means.  But those who conducted authorized interrogations using authorized methods, which can only be considered quite humane since we subject our own troops to that same experience, do not deserve scorn from the protected.  So in this case Jack Nicholson's soliloquy is on point.  Just say 'thank you' and be on your way.

I'll just say "thank you", and reserve my bile for those who did the authorizing.
 
I think we differ on the severity of the methods.  A simple way to define torture is that the term includes any practice that is so painful or stressful that a determined subject will reveal information they would rather not reveal in order to prevent further application of the practice. 
 
I have never tried waterboarding myself, but I thought this description sounded credible:
 
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717
 
 
 
 

I think we differ on the severity of the methods. A simple way to define torture is that the term includes any practice that is so painful or stressful that a determined subject will reveal information they would rather not reveal in order to prevent further application of the practice.

With that definition I may be guilty, in using the approved discipline methods, while training recruits.  A better definition is if it causes bodily harm.  Uncomfortable sitting positions, prolonged standing, sleep deprivation, 1000 calorie per day diets, and water-boarding fit well under this definition.  Note I said harm not discomfort.  We need to toughen up or just surrender.  I prefer the former.

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

ActionJack


I'm retired;
 

 
It's a lie I tell you!
 
Some of you may not be aware of this but the Marine Corps doesn't give you 'retirement' pay until you go over 30 years. From the day that you 'retire' until you hit that 30 year mark...Mother Green pays you retainer pay....only service that does that.
 

 

ActionJack

I think we differ on the severity of the methods. A simple way to define torture is that the term includes any practice that is so painful or stressful that a determined subject will reveal information they would rather not reveal in order to prevent further application of the practice.

With that definition I may be guilty, in using the approved discipline methods, while training recruits.  A better definition is if it causes bodily harm.  Uncomfortable sitting positions, prolonged standing, sleep deprivation, 1000 calorie per day diets, and water-boarding fit well under this definition.  Note I said harm not discomfort.  We need to toughen up or just surrender.  I prefer the former.

 
How about we close down our interrogation facilities and send all suspected terrorists to basic training?
 
 

How about we close down our interrogation facilities and send all suspected terrorists to basic training?

Hmm!  I might have to go back for that.

"What do we mean by patriotism ... ? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility - a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."  A. Stevenson

 
I think you should, because it is a no-lose proposition.  Suspects that had any useful intelligence would spill their guts within the first two weeks of boot camp.  Suspects that had no intelligence whatsoever, on the other hand, would make ideal Marines .
 
Have I mentioned I had brothers in the Army and Navy?